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Balancing Doing and Not Doing Episode 2

Balancing Doing and Not Doing

If you've felt overwhelmed by the never-ending cycle of creating, planning, and obsessing over your projects, You're not alone. Brendan and Mark have both been there, caught up in the whirlwind of "doing" without pausing to question its true value. Neglecting to reassess our priorities can lead us down a rabbit hole of fruitless tasks. We end up feeling guilty for not accomplishing enough, even when we've been working non-stop. It's maddening to feel stuck in this cycle, especially after you've tried so much with such little success. It's like being on a treadmill, constantly running but not moving forwards. In this episode, Brendan and Mark dive into the art of "not doing". It turns out that stepping back from constant creation can lead to unexpected opportunities and maybe even a greater sense of stillness. If you're ready to break free from the cycle and start focusing on what truly matters, this episode is for you.Links To Be MagneticWhy Aren't We Awesomer?The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, by David BrooksFalling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, by Richard Rohr

· 54:45


[00:00:00] On episode two of Convergence, Brendan and I talk about whether and how it's possible to get what you want out of life with way less effort.

[00:00:09] 🎵

[00:00:17] So, uh, you've got follow-up from when last we spoke.

[00:00:21] I do. A couple things that we talked about.

[00:00:23] We had mentioned the term right action, and I was stumbling over my memory

[00:00:28] trying to remember where I knew that from, and you had mentioned Buddhism, I think.

[00:00:34] I had mentioned to be magnetic, and I think neither of those are...

[00:00:37] Well, neither of those are where I know the term right action from.

[00:00:41] I know it from Enneagram work, and actually from being a Nine.

[00:00:47] A Nine is typically averse to causing any disruption in other people's lives.

[00:00:55] They want to keep the peace, both internally and externally.

[00:00:58] And so they often don't do things.

[00:01:01] They will think things, but not put that action out into the world.

[00:01:06] Until there is some sort of justice issue or conviction or state...

[00:01:19] Something that goes beyond, like, okay, I don't care whose feathers I ruffle.

[00:01:24] Uh, this is right action for me.

[00:01:26] This is something I have to do.

[00:01:28] A transgression has been... has occurred.

[00:01:30] Yeah.

[00:01:31] And therefore, a right must be wronged.

[00:01:32] A wrong must be righted. Yes.

[00:01:34] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:01:35] And I was confusing that in... with two-magnetic, they have aligned action.

[00:01:40] Aligned action for that is something that aligns with your authentic code.

[00:01:47] In this manifestation world, you create four words.

[00:01:51] That's your authentic code.

[00:01:52] And you run everything that you do by those four words

[00:01:55] to make sure that it aligns with you in some way.

[00:01:59] And aligns with what... where you are and where you want to be.

[00:02:03] And I think the combination of those two, aligned right action, is the way to go.

[00:02:09] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:10] Um, always, always, always feels about ARA.

[00:02:13] Um, I... talk to me about manifestation.

[00:02:19] Oh my god, dude.

[00:02:21] It has... it has brought me so many cool things.

[00:02:24] Um, and by things, I don't mean possessions, but just happenings.

[00:02:30] Um, so I... so... so manifestation, um, like there's a whole big world of it

[00:02:38] that... that's just... people just generally know.

[00:02:41] And I know just one segment of it, which is this paid program

[00:02:47] uh, called To Be Magnetic.

[00:02:49] Uh, where it's kind of like a... it's a service for rich white women

[00:02:56] who want more of their own stuff.

[00:02:59] Like it's... it's kind of... it's really, um...

[00:03:04] the... the program is designed pretty... for... for a segment of audience.

[00:03:09] But the lessons apply to everybody, which is really great.

[00:03:13] Um, and, uh, it's a way of... of getting you to do things for yourself,

[00:03:22] to get your... to get your head in the right space,

[00:03:25] to get your actions in the right space for you to achieve the goals that you want.

[00:03:31] Um, a big part of it is making lists, like lists of the... of the minor and major

[00:03:37] manifestations that you want to bring into your life.

[00:03:40] Um, and also in... in the program that I do,

[00:03:43] it's also about re... reprogramming your traumas and your, um, your damage.

[00:03:50] Uh, so like there's a... there's an inner child workshop

[00:03:55] where you go through different stages of childhood

[00:03:59] and you do these, uh, guided meditations that have binaural beats

[00:04:05] and... and... and they have like, uh, different prompts for you to do tapping on yourself

[00:04:10] so you can kind of get an EMDR-like back and forth sensation in your... in your brain.

[00:04:16] And these will help you unblock, um,

[00:04:23] traumas in your mind and... and things from the past that are keeping...

[00:04:28] that keeping you stuck in your current patterns and current way of thinking.

[00:04:32] And it breaks you free from that so you can see the wider world.

[00:04:36] You can open your mind a bit.

[00:04:38] And it does it in a re... the TBM at least does it in a really gentle way,

[00:04:42] uh, guiding you through the process step by step.

[00:04:45] Um, there's a lot of prompts for journal entries to get you to express and... and, uh, dump,

[00:04:53] um, the... the details out of you and... and, uh, get some movement momentum going.

[00:05:01] And, um, yeah, so it's mostly... it's most... it's mostly like figure out your authentic code,

[00:05:08] which is like four words that you run everything by.

[00:05:11] And... and for me, my four words are love, home, art, and growth.

[00:05:17] And to me, those mean a lot of things.

[00:05:20] They don't just mean those, like the dictionary definitions of those words.

[00:05:23] But, um, you know, love for me is not just my love for Margaret,

[00:05:28] but also my... my love for my friends and my cats and... and, um, literally everybody.

[00:05:36] And, um, like just the... the idea of loving in general is... is something that's really

[00:05:42] important to me.

[00:05:44] And so if something in my life I encounter is not a loving action or a loving situation,

[00:05:55] that's not for me.

[00:05:56] I... I don't want to be causing harm.

[00:05:57] I don't want to be disrupting people and that kind of thing.

[00:06:00] So it would be something that would... no, I'm not going to do that because that doesn't

[00:06:03] align with me.

[00:06:05] Um, but yeah, uh, the authentic code, um, doing journal entries, doing, um, uh,

[00:06:14] meditations, guided meditations.

[00:06:17] Uh, and these are like kind of the core things for the TBM side of the manifestation world.

[00:06:23] Outside of the manifest... outside of TBM, I think there's a lot of like vision boards

[00:06:28] and, um, positive thinking and like stay... something called like staying in the vortex.

[00:06:35] And I have no idea what the... I mean, I know what a vision board is, but I...

[00:06:39] like Pinterest is great.

[00:06:42] But one of the things that, uh, one of the things that Lacey Phillips, the... the

[00:06:49] creator and curator of TBM says is like, you know, if you, if you clip out, uh, a couple

[00:06:58] walking on a beach and put it on your vision board for your, uh, for your, your partner,

[00:07:04] like you're, you're trying to call in, um, the, the person that you want to marry and

[00:07:10] you put, you put a picture of a couple walking on the beach.

[00:07:12] Well, your brain is seeing two other people walking on the beach.

[00:07:16] Like it's not seeing you.

[00:07:19] And, and it's, you, one of the big things with, with being able to actually call in

[00:07:26] and bring in the things that you want on your manifestation lists is to know that you can

[00:07:31] have that.

[00:07:32] And, and, and part of the reprogramming is, is being able to see, to believe that if that

[00:07:38] person can have it, I can have it.

[00:07:40] That we're the same.

[00:07:41] You gotta find... oh, another big part of it is finding expanders.

[00:07:44] Expanders are other people or other situations that you can relate to and see, like, they're

[00:07:50] just like me.

[00:07:50] They've had the same background.

[00:07:52] They've had the same struggle.

[00:07:54] I've, I've been through that.

[00:07:57] And if they can get through that and now have what I want, I can have that too.

[00:08:02] Yeah, I can't, I can't recommend, uh, uh, to be magnetic enough, even though it's, it's

[00:08:07] kind of pricey and, and, and very silly at times.

[00:08:12] The, it's, it's, it's really great.

[00:08:15] It, um, the, the, the, the meditations, they're called DIs for deep imaginings, uh, are so

[00:08:26] interesting.

[00:08:28] There's quite a big variety of them, but they're all kind of the same.

[00:08:31] Uh, they got the binaural beats going on and it's Lacey Phillips or sometimes a couple

[00:08:39] other people just, you know, giving you a few things to kind of keep you down into a

[00:08:44] theta state and then, um, giving you these prompts that like, I can't even, I can't even

[00:08:52] recall them.

[00:08:53] Cause I feel like, you know, I'm, I'm just in this subconscious like state where I'm

[00:08:58] not even really thinking about anything.

[00:09:00] And that's a cool thing too, is that, uh, the, you can't, you can't consciously, according

[00:09:07] to To Be Magnetic's teachings, you can't consciously get your self-worth up.

[00:09:14] Um, because then everybody would do that.

[00:09:16] We would consciously think let's, let's, I'm just, I'm worth it, you know, but like you

[00:09:22] have to do it through the subconscious.

[00:09:24] Your subconscious has to realize that your worth is there.

[00:09:27] And when you, and when you realize your worth is there, that's when things come in and you

[00:09:32] achieve the things that you, that you want, because you're calling in things that are

[00:09:37] above your self-worth because you're not, you're not there yet.

[00:09:40] Otherwise you'd have it already.

[00:09:42] And, uh, and so you gotta, you gotta do the work to raise your self, your subconscious

[00:09:47] worth.

[00:09:48] And when you're in these specific, uh, deep imaginings, meditations, uh, according to

[00:09:56] them and from my experience, you're, you're at the subconscious level listening to these

[00:10:05] things and it's, it's helping reprogram and create new neural pathways and through

[00:10:11] repetition, those pathways can stick and all the goodness comes in.

[00:10:17] And I can tell you about the list of things that have, that have come into my life since

[00:10:22] I started doing this and it's long.

[00:10:27] There's an interesting use, it's going to sound like an absolute curve ball tangent,

[00:10:32] but there's an interesting use, I think, in something like AI in being able to consume

[00:10:40] for lack of a better word, uh, or, or sort of understand all of these programs because

[00:10:47] there are many.

[00:10:47] And, and, and I think, you know, something that you said earlier about it being silly

[00:10:50] in places, I think this is what's really interesting is, is how bits and pieces we take

[00:10:58] elements from programs, whether it's self-improvement or whether it's, you know, business, marketing,

[00:11:03] um, you know, health, whatever, whatever those things might be, we take the bits that apply

[00:11:09] to us and feel like they speak to us and then we reject or we ignore the bits that feel

[00:11:14] a bit, you know, silly.

[00:11:16] Um, you know, there, there are communities I'm in where some of the language just, it's

[00:11:22] just, it kind of makes my eyes roll into the back of my head.

[00:11:26] But I enjoy the other, you know, 95% of, of, you know, what I'm there for.

[00:11:32] And there's something interesting, I think, about an AI product or, or something that

[00:11:38] can know that about, you know, the things about which you're cynical, um, and the things

[00:11:43] that you were engaged with, and maybe the things that you're okay to be opened up to,

[00:11:47] you know, I think.

[00:11:48] Yeah.

[00:11:48] And to that point, I just, uh, I was listening to Alan Watts yesterday and, uh, two days

[00:11:54] ago, and he said something about how a typical person is only in their best moment is only

[00:12:01] ever willing to accept a 5% change in the way they think.

[00:12:06] Uh, and that's on a good day.

[00:12:08] I've been trying to get my head around the three principles for, uh, feels like a couple

[00:12:18] of years now, which is, um, that the idea of, I mean, I'm, I'm going to get it wrong

[00:12:22] now because it's still, it doesn't quite stick.

[00:12:24] I like the concept about it's, it's the whole thing about how we are not our thoughts.

[00:12:30] Um, and there is an, and how everything is really our perception.

[00:12:39] And so every situation that you are in can be made tolerable or better by realizing that's

[00:12:49] just a thought or a feeling that you were having.

[00:12:51] That's not you.

[00:12:51] That's not your true experience.

[00:12:53] And some people it's blown the doors off for them.

[00:12:56] And for others like me, I get, I understand it on a, I get what they're getting at, but

[00:13:03] it hasn't yet that, that, that token hasn't yet dropped into my personal pachinko machine

[00:13:09] where I've, you know, began.

[00:13:10] And maybe I just have to keep chipping away at 5%, 5%, 5%.

[00:13:14] And suddenly I'll have that awakening, just like the Scotsman, the Scottish welder did,

[00:13:19] when he realized they saw the, is it Michael Neal who had the, why aren't we awesome a

[00:13:24] talk and, uh, and, and talked about it.

[00:13:27] And like, yeah, I don't know, uh, for me, like I, um, both to be magnetic and Enneagram

[00:13:36] work were two of the major things that have gotten me to, um, to really solidify that

[00:13:46] concept you were just talking about, about that, the way our mind works, the thoughts

[00:13:53] that are our train of thought is not ourselves.

[00:13:57] Um, on top of that, also a lot of Alan Watson, Ram Dass, um, books have been, uh, I really

[00:14:06] like there's, there's one concept from Alan Watts about, um, well, he, he just really

[00:14:10] helped me.

[00:14:12] He helped me understand that we're all God.

[00:14:17] And also that, oh man, that God is a metaphor, all the religious stuff that's supposed to

[00:14:25] be taken as metaphor.

[00:14:26] And like, conceptually, I knew that, but I grew up with around so many people that took

[00:14:31] it so literally.

[00:14:33] And I'm, I was just like, what the F are you guys doing?

[00:14:38] Like, but also I couldn't, I could like, everybody took it so literally.

[00:14:44] So I thought that it was supposed to be taken literally, but I could see it was a metaphor

[00:14:50] and, and that it shouldn't be taken literally.

[00:14:54] But my brain couldn't make the connection to where, well, I can just take it literally.

[00:14:59] I can just take it figuratively.

[00:15:00] I don't have to take it literally, but my brain was still holding on to taking it literally.

[00:15:05] So I was super atheist for so long.

[00:15:09] And then I kind of like drifted into the spiritual world, just being like, I know that there's

[00:15:15] things that I don't understand.

[00:15:16] I know that there's things that science doesn't explain, you know, science just doesn't get

[00:15:20] it yet, you know, and, and, you know, there's some sort of energy connection.

[00:15:25] I believe in a collective unconscious.

[00:15:28] I understand that people can maybe not be telepathic, but like can understand each other

[00:15:34] that can vibe that there's something more there.

[00:15:39] And it wasn't until it wasn't until recently that I've, I've been accepting the word God

[00:15:48] and not being triggered by it.

[00:15:50] But this like, now I'm less like, you know, an original translation of the word God is

[00:15:56] creation.

[00:15:58] And our bodies, our cells are literally dividing and creating constantly.

[00:16:04] We are just full of God.

[00:16:07] And like, you know, like whenever, when I was a kid and somebody would say, Oh yeah,

[00:16:11] God is inside you.

[00:16:13] It's like, okay, so the big, the man in the sky is also like a ghost in me.

[00:16:18] Like what the fuck?

[00:16:19] What the what?

[00:16:21] And so anyways, yeah.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:25] Um, yeah, I, I have long conversations with, uh, with another, uh, friend, uh, from across

[00:16:31] the pond, uh, on this kind of stuff.

[00:16:34] And, and I think we've, yeah, I think the three of us are oddly enough at a similar

[00:16:39] kind of stage, really.

[00:16:40] I think I went through my hardcore asshole atheist, uh, you know, years just being a

[00:16:47] jerk about it, um, and upsetting people and, and, you know, I mean, not, not like maliciously,

[00:16:52] but certainly not, you know, as kindly as, as I might.

[00:16:55] Um, and then, I don't know, over the last 10 years, maybe a little more, the idea of

[00:17:02] certainty in general has been something that I've kind of rejected of just like, I I'm

[00:17:09] almost made a little bit uncomfortable by, by people who are certain of something because

[00:17:15] you can't really be certain of anything.

[00:17:18] And I know that again, that may, that may sound a little bit woo woo or whatever, but

[00:17:22] I mean, really, um, you know, again, it's, it's all perception and it's all our, how

[00:17:27] we, yeah, how we perceive things.

[00:17:29] Um, but, you know, you, you take a guard, like how, how crazy is it to, to be definite

[00:17:35] about, you know, you, you've got the, the asshole atheists, like now Ricky Gervais,

[00:17:40] I think he's, he's now become one, uh, well, it has been one for years.

[00:17:43] Uh, and, and, um, Richard Dawkins, um, I think at whose feet he sits.

[00:17:50] Um, and that level of, of, it's not just, you know, the burden of proof is on you kind

[00:17:58] of thing, which is one aspect, but it's also the certainty with which they carry that belief.

[00:18:04] And yeah, I think as I get older, religiously, zealously, zealously unreligious, and that

[00:18:12] is a thing I got to my other, um, transatlantic role, one of my other transatlantic friends

[00:18:18] with whom I have these conversations, I got a bit, and it'll be interesting if, if I might

[00:18:23] invite her to listen to this episode, I might not, we'll see.

[00:18:25] Um, we, we got a, I got a bit prickly, uh, over a conversation we were having, and it

[00:18:32] was a little bit to do with, a little bit to do with manifestation, a little bit to

[00:18:37] do with sort of three principles, things, and an aspect to which sort of she views some

[00:18:44] of that stuff, where it is as a religion, it is for her, she holds it with, with zeal,

[00:18:53] like, and, and, you know, we, and, and I've tried to say, like, that's not my experience

[00:18:58] or whatever, and, and, you know, that doesn't ring true for me, or, you know, that, that,

[00:19:02] that isn't how the world works, because I think her interpretation of it is perhaps

[00:19:08] slightly different from, you know, from yours, or from others, and it's, it was,

[00:19:15] I found it a difficult conversation, because for her, there was that certainty, there was

[00:19:20] that degree of, well, no, this is, this is science, and again, like, that's, that's her

[00:19:26] science, that's science that can be founded, and can be accessed, and can be read, but

[00:19:29] it's not, you know, what I can identify with, and I kind of realised, like, just as a shower

[00:19:35] thought, like, this is a religion to her, she has had the thing, like, we had, she's had,

[00:19:41] you know, Catholicism, or whatever other religions, yeah, yeah, she's, she's, she's heard

[00:19:47] the, you know, the, the, the Jesus stuff before, and rejected it, and, and, and, because I tried

[00:19:53] to say to her, it's, you know, I think what you have is a faith, what you have is, and,

[00:19:58] and that kind of bridled with her, like, she didn't really appreciate that, but it's, it's,

[00:20:03] it's that sort of understanding, again, that, like, some beliefs are just held really, you

[00:20:09] know, with that zeal, and okay, like, it might, it might upset someone to call it a religion,

[00:20:14] and that's fair enough, because that's a big, that's a big word with a big capital letter

[00:20:18] R at the beginning, but it is something that you can hold with zeal, and hold with certainty,

[00:20:25] and, like, we get back to that certainty thing again, and it's also about proselytising,

[00:20:30] which is one of the most awkward words to say, but, you know, you know that, I mean, you

[00:20:37] will know this, and, and I, I've been there as well, my brother's been there, lots of people

[00:20:41] who want to improve my life have told, I've had this experience, there is nothing like the zeal

[00:20:47] of the converted, oh yeah, oh my gosh, the, oh, I mean, I shouldn't, I shouldn't reveal this, but

[00:20:55] uh, this, um, I've, I've a, I've a good friend that we, uh, we want to start making music together,

[00:21:03] and, um, nobody take this, this is, this is copyrighted, uh, but, TM, TM, TM, TM, TM, uh,

[00:21:10] we want to call our first album the zeal of the newly enlightened, yes, yeah, yeah, because I,

[00:21:17] I definitely, um, uh, and is super guilty of that, finding a new thing, having any sort of

[00:21:25] success with it, and just wanting to shout it from the rooftops, and that everybody know about

[00:21:30] this cool thing, I've, I am absolutely the same, 100% the same, um, and I think it's natural,

[00:21:38] and I think it comes from the best of places, it does, it really does, it's like, this has worked

[00:21:43] for me, yeah, and what's so hard, exactly, and what's so hard is it comes back to my thing about

[00:21:49] the AI, it's like, it, it, you have your bits of this bento box of stuff that you can, that, that,

[00:21:59] that resonates with you, and then there's other little bits of that, that you're like, oh, I

[00:22:04] ignore that bit, and other people are going to have those, and it might just be that the bit

[00:22:07] they go, ah, I'm not engaging with that, that might be the linchpin, you know, that might be

[00:22:11] the thing that you really connected with, that helped you understand it, and yeah, it's, it's,

[00:22:16] it's, it's really tricky trying to help people find these things, and I think, I think, yeah,

[00:22:22] all you can do is, is sort of, you, it's kind of be that person who's like, wait for them to

[00:22:28] discover it, I know, and then, I hate that, you've got to have that moment of, oh, you discovered

[00:22:35] that, did you, okay, well done, like, like, okay, I've been telling you about it for three years,

[00:22:39] but you just discovered it, did you, okay, uh, in the same way that the kids nowadays will be like,

[00:22:45] have you heard of this, um, this sitcom on Netflix called Friends? It's like, it's an oldie,

[00:22:53] but I like it, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, you know, I'm glad you've just discovered it,

[00:22:58] but some of us were there 20-something years ago, yeah, um, we VCR'd this kid, yeah, exactly,

[00:23:05] you've kind of got to wait for people, I think, to find it, and then be like, cool, now you're here,

[00:23:11] let's have a chat about it, let's, let's, you know, let's, let's get on this together, yeah,

[00:23:15] my biggest problem is, is, uh, is with friends that aren't looking to work on themselves,

[00:23:22] like, I, I, I love working on myself, and trying to find a new thing that takes me to the next level,

[00:23:28] and, and keep chugging along at this, and, and then, I, you know, I get, something works for

[00:23:34] me, and I get excited, and I want to share it with a friend, and they're like, oh, yeah, that's,

[00:23:37] that's really cool, and, and then they don't, they just keep doing their lines, yeah, they,

[00:23:43] yeah, it's like, but, but it's so cool, and also, don't you see how this could make your life

[00:23:50] easier? Like, you are struggling right now, my dude, like, you're, you're pushing yourself just

[00:23:56] barely to get by, and then, you know, that's the whole reason why they can't put in that extra

[00:24:00] effort, because they have, putting in all of their effort to just get through the day, and, uh, like,

[00:24:06] and I, I so relate, I've been there before, and I, I often, like, try and think back, I'm like, how,

[00:24:12] how did I get out of that? And getting divorced, that was a big, that was a big help. Well, there's,

[00:24:20] there's a, there's a thing there about, um, about sort of ruptures, yes, uh, and, and sometimes it

[00:24:26] takes, it takes those ruptures to, to have a realization. Um, there's a book, which is, like a

[00:24:33] lot of, if you'll excuse me, American sort of self-help books, there's a lot of, not just God,

[00:24:38] which is fine, but there's a lot of, specifically, a lot of church in a lot of books that are in the

[00:24:43] sort of self-help genre, which, you know, again, wrong, I was a little, but there's a book called

[00:24:47] The Second Mountain, which talks about, it's a really interesting concept where you, what usually

[00:24:58] happens is people live the sort of the usual life, you know, they, they do their work, they,

[00:25:02] maybe they, they get to a point where they're, they're quite successful. It doesn't have to be,

[00:25:08] you know, necessarily in terms of work, but, you know, where, where they're quite successful,

[00:25:12] and then they get to a point where they want to start giving back, and that's The Second Mountain,

[00:25:16] and it's all about how, if you are someone who works in knowledge or, like, it's, it's the time

[00:25:24] when you want to write the book, it's the time when you want to create the course, it's the time

[00:25:28] when you want to proselytize, you know, and spread your big idea, and, and it's, it's, it's quite

[00:25:35] interesting. I think I'm still trying to find, I think I thought I was on it, and I'm not there

[00:25:42] yet. I, you know, as I, as I'm discovering, and, you know, to your point about effort, like, I'm,

[00:25:48] I'm on this, this journey, or this little quest to try and not necessarily do less, but

[00:26:00] be more effortless. Yes. And again, you know, there's, there's people in my sphere who are like,

[00:26:07] finally, Mark, we've been saying this for ages, or whatever, because I've, you know,

[00:26:13] so quick possible tangent, because we may talk about this later, but I've just,

[00:26:20] what's really interesting, so I, I'm consolidating all of my, you know, my different identities,

[00:26:25] and they're all going into one place, and so everything now is on one website,

[00:26:30] the, the hallmark of everything, and it go, there's stuff there that goes back to 2008.

[00:26:38] If I wanted to, there's stuff that could go back further, but some of my writing,

[00:26:41] as I discovered yesterday, is absolutely intolerable. Some of my stuff from, like,

[00:26:48] 2006, 2007, which I managed to find through the Wayback Machine, oh, oh, god, I hate that version

[00:26:54] of me. Oh, really, really obnoxious. Anyway, I love all versions of you, Mark. Thank you,

[00:27:01] someone has to. It's you and my mum, so thank you for being there. Yeah, my pleasure. What I

[00:27:07] discovered was, I haven't changed in, in 20 years, because I was looking at stuff again through the

[00:27:21] Wayback Machine, bits of software, you know, software products and things that I'd created,

[00:27:26] I call them products, but, like, software projects that I'd created that had, you know, brands and

[00:27:30] names and all sorts of stuff. I have not stopped. I, I, creating, coming up with ideas, executing

[00:27:38] on the thing, and then, you know, I don't know, get bored, get distracted, whatever, and on to

[00:27:43] the next thing. And it was, it was just really interesting to look at that and go, yeah, like,

[00:27:49] I'm still in the same patterns. And, okay, it gets me this, like, ridiculous archive of stuff

[00:27:57] that I can go back to, memories I can live, or relive, but ultimately, I'm no, you know, I'm

[00:28:04] worse off than I was when I had a job. I'm, I'm happier. Yeah, definitely happier, definitely

[00:28:11] more content, I have way more autonomy. But I still haven't found my thing. And that's because

[00:28:18] I, you know, part of the problem is I keep looking for my thing instead of actually just...

[00:28:23] That, that perfectly segues into my second piece of follow-up. We're still in follow-up.

[00:28:30] But before that, you mentioned The Second Mountain. And that reminds me of a book I'm

[00:28:34] actually listening to right now, for the second time, which is called Falling Upward by Richard

[00:28:39] Rohr. And he is a, he's an expert in Enneagram work. And that's how I found out about him. And

[00:28:46] then I just stumbled upon his book called Falling Upward, which is about the second phase of life.

[00:28:52] And, like, the first phase of life is all about, like, finding relationships, finding a job,

[00:28:58] finding your place in the world. The second phase of life is to go on your hero's journey, get,

[00:29:05] you know, leave home, leave the safety of that, go and do something bigger and better, and grow.

[00:29:13] And so The Second Mountain sounds, sounds very similar in that regard. But

[00:29:23] the doing, the difficult doing that you mentioned, this is, this is a big, this is a big reason why

[00:29:30] I wanted to talk to you about Enneagram, the Enneagram and, and find out what your number was

[00:29:37] and, and talk to you about it. Because this is, and I'm so excited that we're the same number,

[00:29:41] because it's just gonna, I don't have to go into a whole bunch of extra stuff, because this is not

[00:29:45] an Enneagram podcast. But the Enneagram, the nine, so the quickly about the Enneagram, there's nine

[00:29:53] numbers, each of them, there's, there's two separate triads of, of thinking, feeling and

[00:30:03] doing, you're either dominant or repressed in one of those two things. And so Enneagram nines,

[00:30:11] the three, six and nine are in this middle triangle that have the same repression as they do

[00:30:19] their dominant center. And we, as nines, are both doing repressed and doing dominant. So

[00:30:28] everything, you know, everybody does things. And so if you're doing repressed, that doesn't mean

[00:30:32] you don't do anything. What it means is that you don't do the thing that you really need to be

[00:30:37] doing. And what you're doing doesn't bring in... Oh, I feel seen. Yeah. Oh, man. If you want to

[00:30:48] feel seen in like, kind of the worst, but best way, deep dive into Enneagram, because it's like,

[00:30:54] whoa. Oh, I mean, I've Yeah, I've got a big expensive report that I that my friend

[00:30:59] enabled me to do a couple of years ago. And I've got to, I've got to find out where it is and dive

[00:31:05] back into it. Because yeah, yeah. So yeah, so a nine is doing dominant, which means we,

[00:31:12] we bring in information by doing. That's how we understand the world. We don't,

[00:31:18] thinking and feeling are there, and they support doing, but it's by us actually doing

[00:31:25] that we gain knowledge, gain experience, understand, comprehend the world. But then

[00:31:32] we don't use doing to functionally get what we're after. And so we have to, we have to do things to

[00:31:43] bring up our doing center, and get it into something that's productive and useful for us.

[00:31:50] For me, a lot of the tips that have been helpful for me have been like, making, making priority

[00:31:57] lists, making, making lists. And, and thinking about what is, what is it I'm supposed to what,

[00:32:04] what, what is it I need to be doing right now? And or if if you're presented with options,

[00:32:11] what is mine to do? And since, since we are doing dominant and doing repressed, like,

[00:32:22] doing is going to be a lot on our mind. And it's, you know, the idea of this podcast is all about

[00:32:27] doing and what we're doing and how we're doing it. I think that this is going to be,

[00:32:33] it's, it's both us not actually doing the thing, but, but talking about it and thinking about it

[00:32:43] and feeling about it. So I want to dive into that doing that is not necessarily productive.

[00:32:52] So because that, that again, makes me go a little bit cold. What do you mean by cold?

[00:32:59] Again, it feels, I think, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in a point where I've done so much doing

[00:33:06] over the last few years. Because it's felt like control, it's felt like,

[00:33:12] well, you know, in order for me to achieve, you know, whatever, whatever it is,

[00:33:18] um, get it, getting more business in, maybe making myself a bit more financially secure

[00:33:23] that has to involve a lot of doing. And so my doing is coming up with ideas. My doing is,

[00:33:28] is creating brands is creating, um, series of things. It's creating commitments.

[00:33:35] And so creating commitments. Oh my God. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah,

[00:33:42] very much, very much that. Um, and for a lot of, for a lot of what, what I do and I,

[00:33:49] because I partly I move so, so quickly, it's not as if I get, it would be very easy to,

[00:33:55] to read this and say, you get distracted and you go on to the next thing. But actually what happens

[00:33:59] is I evolve. And then that, that idea no longer quite serves the new evolution. Um, and so you,

[00:34:08] I end up with this, with all of this doing, but I think one of the things that if I stop and

[00:34:12] actually really think about it, very few of the bigger opportunities that I've had, if any have

[00:34:20] actually come from any of the doing, they've come from being, they've come from being in spaces.

[00:34:28] They've come from talking to people. You know, one of my biggest opportunities that I, um,

[00:34:34] I have at the moment that, you know, that I'm continuing to, to, to work with is it came from

[00:34:40] a talk I gave, which I was asked to do, not because any of my doing, but because of, you know,

[00:34:46] they didn't want to know about the things that, you know, the doing, um, they wanted to know about

[00:34:50] me and my story. Um, and that's what the talk was. And it just so happens that I had, thank you. It

[00:34:56] just so happened that I had, you know, services there that one or two people thought might be

[00:35:01] useful. And so again, like all of this doing all of this creation, all of this writing,

[00:35:06] podcasting, recording, planning, thinking, worrying, obsessing, um, all of this debt,

[00:35:15] all of this, all of that really has, has, has been because I find it so difficult to believe

[00:35:26] that things can happen without the doing. Yes. That, that is such a nine thing to say.

[00:35:35] Such a Samantha. So you end up with this. Yeah. With this unproductive doing. Yeah,

[00:35:42] absolutely. A big part of, uh, something I've learned recently about the doing,

[00:35:48] um, is with the Enneagram work is because we, um, process the world by doing,

[00:36:00] we actually have to do those unproductive doing things to get us to understand the thing that we

[00:36:08] actually should be doing. So like, uh, an example for me is, is often like, I'll make a list of all

[00:36:15] the things I need to do in the day. And, you know, it'll be like, um, all right, I need,

[00:36:20] I need to work on my house. I need, I'm, I'm, I'm building a new bedroom and I got to, um,

[00:36:26] I got to feed these dogs that were dog sitting and take them for a walk. I need to, um,

[00:36:33] make myself lunch, et cetera. A few more, a few other things. I'm like, okay, it's time for me to

[00:36:38] work on the cottage. I'm going to go out to the shed and grab a couple of tools. I get to the

[00:36:43] shed and it's a disaster, this stuff everywhere. And it's like, I can't find the thing. Well,

[00:36:48] obviously I need to clean to, to be able to get, to find the thing. And so I, I'm doing this

[00:36:53] cleaning task that was not on my list, but, um, it helps me, it helps me process. It helps me

[00:37:04] prepare myself and feel better about the things that I'm doing. So I'm, I'm being unproductive,

[00:37:11] but also being productive, like I'm being productive. I'm cleaning. It's,

[00:37:15] that's a good thing, but that's not, that's not what I set myself out to do today. Um,

[00:37:20] and so I'm distracting myself from my goals. I mean, I'm taking myself away from accomplishing

[00:37:26] what I'm ultimately wanting to do. Like finishing this bedroom is way more important than keeping

[00:37:32] the shed clean, but in the long scheme of things, but I need to do that today in order for me to

[00:37:40] get any work done on the bedroom because I need my, cause my brain is now not tidy because I'm

[00:37:46] thinking about the shed and how I can't find anything. So it's, it's sort of what, what you

[00:37:51] would call, uh, we, uh, what Americans call puttering and we would call pottering. Uh,

[00:37:56] I think it's, it's, it's, you know, there, there is a, there is a productivity, there is a utility

[00:38:01] in that. Um, and I, yeah, I, I liked that, that idea of, cause I've, I've got into that sometimes

[00:38:08] where, you know, if I'm working on something in the brain wants to pop up a little idea,

[00:38:12] like a little Jack Russell Terrier and go, Hey, here's a, here's a thing you can do is rather

[00:38:17] than try and push that down and repress it, or, or, you know, push it away is to note it down

[00:38:23] and actually put it somewhere so that the, the, the loop is closed. And so that there is actually

[00:38:30] some kind of, not necessarily action there, but at least you've, you know, recognize that idea.

[00:38:35] Um, if I think about my to-do list, if I think about my, there's my concrete to do this, my real

[00:38:41] to-do list, and then there's my sort of vague, I'm supposed to do that. I should, there are the

[00:38:46] things I'm supposed to put on my to-do list that are sort of over here and wibbly wobbly and wishy

[00:38:52] washy. Um, and if I think about either of those, I just want to work on my website and that's,

[00:39:03] that, you know, and I'm very good at convincing myself that I can just do this now or no, no,

[00:39:11] no, I need this for my work, which is, which is the biggest lie. Um, because again, it's,

[00:39:21] it's, you know, having to remember, like I didn't, I haven't got where I am because I have a nice

[00:39:27] looking website. Um, and, but it's so, so hard to, to, to, to, to not do that and to, you know,

[00:39:38] edit the episodes that you're supposed to edit or, or, or register that domain name for a client or

[00:39:45] do whatever the thing is. Um, and I, yeah, and so what, what I think is, is, I guess it's got to

[00:39:52] come down to, and I think we maybe been dancing around a little bit is, is about priorities,

[00:39:57] but not in terms of that arms crossed, you've got to figure out what your priorities are,

[00:40:04] mister, but in terms of actually gently saying, well, what is important to you?

[00:40:11] This job over here now does not seem important, but it serves this higher goal of getting more,

[00:40:18] for me again, you know, being more financially secure. Well, if I finish the jobs that I need

[00:40:24] to do, then that frees me up to then do the next bit of the work that can then hopefully bring in

[00:40:31] more business or it makes sure my customer satisfaction is higher because, you know,

[00:40:35] like there's all these things. And so, yeah, I don't know whether that was where you were

[00:40:40] thinking of going with this, but in terms of connecting it back to what those core priorities

[00:40:46] are, like, that's what we've got to do with these jobs. Exactly. Exactly. And, um, not to, uh,

[00:40:53] overpress on my zeal of the converted, but, um, that's, that's the biggest help from to be

[00:41:01] magnetic for me is it gets you to, to journal in the right way that has, has really good prompts

[00:41:08] and gets you to make lists of the things that you really want. And it gets you to think about

[00:41:15] what you actually need to do to get there. And it, and it's like, they're happy for you to do

[00:41:23] long-term, um, uh, far off goals. Like I have the, one of my manifestations is this compound

[00:41:31] that we talked about last episode about like the, the, the big place or the buildup and the,

[00:41:36] and the resort type thing. And that like, that's, you know, my 10, 15 year plan, whatever,

[00:41:41] but they really want you to focus more on like six to nine months, six to 12 months.

[00:41:48] What, what can you conceivably bring in to your life? Cause, cause you can kind of

[00:41:53] get your mind around that more. You can see the steps to get there. You can,

[00:41:57] you can more easily, you know, it's only a 5% change instead of a 35% change to get to,

[00:42:03] you know, a big thing far off. And so it, uh, yeah, I love it.

[00:42:10] And that, that sort of makes me want to reconnect, I think with, and it, again,

[00:42:15] it comes back to the, the, the bento box of ideas. Um, I want to reconnect, I think with the

[00:42:21] atomic habits book because there is something in there. Um, that I know is the, is, is more than

[00:42:33] the nugget of a good idea. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely the nucleus of, of,

[00:42:37] of a great thing. It's the small repeatable actions and don't worry about the outcome.

[00:42:42] Really worry about the, worry about the doing, but the doing in the right way,

[00:42:46] worry about the setting up the habits based on the intentions that you want and just getting that,

[00:42:53] um, little increment over time. But, but, but, you know, facing, basing everything on your

[00:43:00] output rather than the outcome. And I love all of that. And I think at some point I got a little

[00:43:08] bit, I think maybe lost in the implementation from his perspective, because what a lot of

[00:43:14] these books don't really go into is the assumption that they make about the life that you lead.

[00:43:23] A lot of these are written by and for people who have virtual assistants, um, or they're men who

[00:43:32] can go and do the men things while the women do the women things. And I'm being as assholey gendered

[00:43:39] as I mean to in that, um, there, you know, there, there is, and then, you know, they're often,

[00:43:46] they're often fathers, uh, and they don't really talk, you know, they might vaguely talk about

[00:43:51] being a better father or being a better whatever, but it's somehow all of that stuff doesn't really

[00:43:58] enter into it. Um, and they talk about these various things that you can do. And I think

[00:44:04] few of them acknowledge, yes, but some of us also have to take, like, we don't have someone who can

[00:44:11] take care of our lives when, you know, when we're busy doing the habit stuff. Um, we also need to

[00:44:18] do, you know, with these people who talk about, you only have to do the things that you want to

[00:44:21] do. Not really. I don't want to do the dishes, but if I don't do the dishes, the dishes won't

[00:44:25] get done. I don't, I don't want to clean the poop out of the litter tray every morning, but if I

[00:44:30] don't do it, you want to have cats and dishes. And so that that's, yes, I like that. Thank you.

[00:44:41] Yeah. That's the point that connects us back to the wider, uh, to the wider goal. Yes. Um,

[00:44:47] but yeah, I think, I think where I got a little jaded and where I think I need to pull back

[00:44:52] is not so much worrying about how these people implement their, their idea,

[00:44:59] because atomic habits is a great idea. I should worry less about how he implements it with his

[00:45:04] team around him and think about, okay, how can I make it work for myself as someone who is a single

[00:45:12] person who doesn't have a VA, um, who's got to fit life around, you know, around these things,

[00:45:18] how can I make that work? And I think, again, it's back to that thing I said earlier on about

[00:45:23] like this, whether it's an AI or whatever that helps us take all of these different concepts,

[00:45:28] these, these things, and just, yeah, helps us tweak them so that we can build our own

[00:45:32] little bento box of, of the stuff that works for us in our lives.

[00:45:36] I'm so excited to see what you do with, uh, with AI and how, because you've been,

[00:45:43] you've been using it in some really interesting ways. And I'm excited to explore further in this

[00:45:49] podcast about what, what, and how you're making that happen. Cause you, you showed me, you know,

[00:45:55] the, the photo of, or the, um, the, the cover art for this podcast. And I had one tiny little tweak

[00:46:02] and you sent it through some AI thing and did it. And you know, like it was just, it was,

[00:46:09] it was fantastic. And I was like, Whoa, how, how, what, like, did you type in remove signposts

[00:46:16] behind letter? Oh, like what happened? What did you do? How did that happen? And so like, uh,

[00:46:21] I'm really excited to get further into that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, we, we should definitely

[00:46:26] sit and have a, have an hour long conversation about AI. Cause I think, I think we could,

[00:46:30] cause we haven't got through like any of that stuff that we're going to talk about this week.

[00:46:36] Which is, which is absolutely fine that they will move on to next week. Uh, or they won't,

[00:46:41] I hope they do cause those look interesting. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there is some stuff there.

[00:46:46] Um, yeah, I, I, I feel like the not doing is going to be more and more of a, of a staple,

[00:46:54] I think for me. And it's coming with some guilt, like, and, and I, uh, you know, I have to be okay

[00:46:59] with, with that. You know, there's this podcast idea that I put a fair amount of work into, um,

[00:47:08] and recorded, you know, four episodes of, and I've now got to figure out what I tell those people.

[00:47:15] Um, and there's a part of me that wants to still put them out somewhere

[00:47:21] because you could always have a limited series. Yeah, absolutely. Um, but you know,

[00:47:26] there's stuff I recorded in January for beware of the leopard with, um, two internet people

[00:47:32] that I think you will know, uh, that I haven't done anything with and they would have forgotten

[00:47:37] about it by now, but maybe not. And also that's not the point. It was, you know, there were,

[00:47:43] there were really lovely conversations and we just haven't been able to find the time,

[00:47:49] not this one actually just isn't just on me, um, to, to find the time to do them.

[00:47:53] But I think I've done so much doing with, with bramble over the last few months with getting

[00:47:59] that on its feet and there's still lots and lots and lots and lots to do. Um, but I think getting

[00:48:06] to, yeah, this point in my, my, uh, my evolution where I'm focusing on doing less, but also having

[00:48:16] to, yeah, deal with the guilt, a little bit of the guilt of what that means. Um, yeah, it's a,

[00:48:25] it's a, it's a weird time. If I may be, if I may be so bold and, and, you know, not my place and

[00:48:35] not even my ability, but I would so love to absolve you of all of that guilt. Like that

[00:48:41] you have nothing at all to feel guilty for. You're doing the best you can. You're doing

[00:48:50] so much and, and it's all really great. And you don't owe anybody anything at all.

[00:48:58] Like, and I'm saying that as a question, but it's not, uh, it like, uh,

[00:49:05] the, the, our, our burden as creatives, as, as people with ideas, uh, especially

[00:49:13] people who have ideas that can also do something and that can make those ideas happen.

[00:49:19] That's a struggle, man, because we, we come up with so many cool things to do.

[00:49:25] Like, I still want to make a new wedding video for my wedding a year and a half ago.

[00:49:29] Like, and it, you know, it's on my list. It's good. I want to make a, I want to make an over,

[00:49:36] uh, a vacation video from that massive trip I took. And, and I made a bunch of small ones

[00:49:42] because it was easy to do and just like on a train ride. But then now I'm back home and I

[00:49:47] want to look at all of the clips and make a big, uh, you know, video of the whole thing. And that's,

[00:49:52] it's just, I want to put time into, I want it to be good. So I want to put time into it. And

[00:49:56] there's only so much time and you have to, you have to forgive yourself that there's only so

[00:50:02] much time and you can't do it all. And you're going to have great ideas that you can't do.

[00:50:06] And you're going to have great ideas that you're going to start and can't finish.

[00:50:09] And that's just fine. One of the things that I'm aware of as time goes on is how much time I did

[00:50:18] have that I don't really, you know, because I, I've, I've sort of, you know, I'd spent time

[00:50:24] admonishing myself for not doing certain things or not doing enough or whatever, ironically enough.

[00:50:29] Um, but when I look back on some of these projects and some of the things that I did,

[00:50:36] I had way, way more free time than I do now. And some of that is cause I, I,

[00:50:47] as I say that I sort of half reject it because there is no such thing as not enough time.

[00:50:53] It's all about priorities. It's all, you know, there, there is time, there is time enough to

[00:50:57] exercise. There is time enough to, to plan, um, to, you know, to, to make sure that the good,

[00:51:02] the right stuff is in the fridge. There is time, you know, it's, it's all about the,

[00:51:10] again, going back to those priorities. And I think, yeah, there, there is some, some work

[00:51:14] to be done for me, you know, um, of, of, and I tried to do this earlier in the year of going

[00:51:22] back to those core things of what do I want out of life? And then, but I think what I've got to

[00:51:28] do is actually think about it less in terms of doing and more in terms of, I don't know

[00:51:35] what the alternative is feeling, um, and thinking and thinking. Yeah. Well, that will be, that will

[00:51:43] be something to explore next week, I guess. Yeah. Uh, one, one quick thing that, that made me think

[00:51:49] of, hopefully this doesn't make us go on for another hour, but, uh, I did a, I did a TBM DI,

[00:51:55] it was called feature self. And it has you think about yourself in one year, in 10 years and at the

[00:52:02] end of your life. And it asks you at the end of your life's spot, how old are you? And I did this

[00:52:10] a year ago, I was 37 and immediately it just felt right. I thought of myself as 87. I'm like,

[00:52:19] I'm on my deathbed. I'm just peacefully kind of fading away. I'm 87 years old. And I'm like,

[00:52:26] when I came out of it and I was like, kind of processing later, I was like,

[00:52:30] that means I got 50 years left. I'm not even halfway through. And like, you know, the first,

[00:52:36] the first chunk of my life, I was a baby. The second chunk of my life, my twenties and, and,

[00:52:41] and a little bit past that I was trapped in an abusive marriage and, and stuck. And like,

[00:52:48] I feel like I've only been myself for a few years and I've got 50 more years. I'm like, so excited.

[00:52:55] I got all this potential to do. And, um, I, I, I see that for you too. Like you had to go through

[00:53:03] all of those things. You had to, uh, quote unquote, waste that time in order to get here where you are,

[00:53:11] or else you wouldn't be you. You wouldn't have done that otherwise. So, um, you got, you got

[00:53:18] all the time in the world, man. Oh, well, um, if you'd like to, uh, you dear listener would like to

[00:53:25] continue to, to stroll with us along this little journey as we figure out what we're going to do

[00:53:29] with our lives, uh, with, with our remaining, uh, 50% of our lives, um, then you can find us

[00:53:35] at convergencepod.com, um, and, uh, find ways to get in touch with us. And, um, as we, as we move

[00:53:41] on, I'm sure we'll find ways to, for you to, to actually say hello. Um, but, um, wow, what,

[00:53:47] what a pleasure and who knows where we'll be and what we'll talk about next week.

[00:53:51] Yeah, hopefully something on the list.

[00:54:13] Uh, this is thing, uh, actually Enneagram related about people who are doing requests and

[00:54:20] counting down. Uh, but usually it's just a three, two, one go. And, uh, it's just a way to kind of

[00:54:26] get you out of your, out of your stuckness and be like, okay, I've been sitting here on the couch,

[00:54:32] man. I really don't want to get up, but I got to go do the dishes and get ready for bed.

[00:54:37] Three, two, one go. And then just, yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a good, it's a good tactic.

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