Episode 2
· 54:45
[00:00:00] On episode two of Convergence, Brendan and I talk about whether and how it's possible to get what you want out of life with way less effort.
[00:00:09] ðµ
[00:00:17] So, uh, you've got follow-up from when last we spoke.
[00:00:21] I do. A couple things that we talked about.
[00:00:23] We had mentioned the term right action, and I was stumbling over my memory
[00:00:28] trying to remember where I knew that from, and you had mentioned Buddhism, I think.
[00:00:34] I had mentioned to be magnetic, and I think neither of those are...
[00:00:37] Well, neither of those are where I know the term right action from.
[00:00:41] I know it from Enneagram work, and actually from being a Nine.
[00:00:47] A Nine is typically averse to causing any disruption in other people's lives.
[00:00:55] They want to keep the peace, both internally and externally.
[00:00:58] And so they often don't do things.
[00:01:01] They will think things, but not put that action out into the world.
[00:01:06] Until there is some sort of justice issue or conviction or state...
[00:01:19] Something that goes beyond, like, okay, I don't care whose feathers I ruffle.
[00:01:24] Uh, this is right action for me.
[00:01:26] This is something I have to do.
[00:01:28] A transgression has been... has occurred.
[00:01:30] Yeah.
[00:01:31] And therefore, a right must be wronged.
[00:01:32] A wrong must be righted. Yes.
[00:01:34] Exactly. Exactly.
[00:01:35] And I was confusing that in... with two-magnetic, they have aligned action.
[00:01:40] Aligned action for that is something that aligns with your authentic code.
[00:01:47] In this manifestation world, you create four words.
[00:01:51] That's your authentic code.
[00:01:52] And you run everything that you do by those four words
[00:01:55] to make sure that it aligns with you in some way.
[00:01:59] And aligns with what... where you are and where you want to be.
[00:02:03] And I think the combination of those two, aligned right action, is the way to go.
[00:02:09] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:02:10] Um, always, always, always feels about ARA.
[00:02:13] Um, I... talk to me about manifestation.
[00:02:19] Oh my god, dude.
[00:02:21] It has... it has brought me so many cool things.
[00:02:24] Um, and by things, I don't mean possessions, but just happenings.
[00:02:30] Um, so I... so... so manifestation, um, like there's a whole big world of it
[00:02:38] that... that's just... people just generally know.
[00:02:41] And I know just one segment of it, which is this paid program
[00:02:47] uh, called To Be Magnetic.
[00:02:49] Uh, where it's kind of like a... it's a service for rich white women
[00:02:56] who want more of their own stuff.
[00:02:59] Like it's... it's kind of... it's really, um...
[00:03:04] the... the program is designed pretty... for... for a segment of audience.
[00:03:09] But the lessons apply to everybody, which is really great.
[00:03:13] Um, and, uh, it's a way of... of getting you to do things for yourself,
[00:03:22] to get your... to get your head in the right space,
[00:03:25] to get your actions in the right space for you to achieve the goals that you want.
[00:03:31] Um, a big part of it is making lists, like lists of the... of the minor and major
[00:03:37] manifestations that you want to bring into your life.
[00:03:40] Um, and also in... in the program that I do,
[00:03:43] it's also about re... reprogramming your traumas and your, um, your damage.
[00:03:50] Uh, so like there's a... there's an inner child workshop
[00:03:55] where you go through different stages of childhood
[00:03:59] and you do these, uh, guided meditations that have binaural beats
[00:04:05] and... and... and they have like, uh, different prompts for you to do tapping on yourself
[00:04:10] so you can kind of get an EMDR-like back and forth sensation in your... in your brain.
[00:04:16] And these will help you unblock, um,
[00:04:23] traumas in your mind and... and things from the past that are keeping...
[00:04:28] that keeping you stuck in your current patterns and current way of thinking.
[00:04:32] And it breaks you free from that so you can see the wider world.
[00:04:36] You can open your mind a bit.
[00:04:38] And it does it in a re... the TBM at least does it in a really gentle way,
[00:04:42] uh, guiding you through the process step by step.
[00:04:45] Um, there's a lot of prompts for journal entries to get you to express and... and, uh, dump,
[00:04:53] um, the... the details out of you and... and, uh, get some movement momentum going.
[00:05:01] And, um, yeah, so it's mostly... it's most... it's mostly like figure out your authentic code,
[00:05:08] which is like four words that you run everything by.
[00:05:11] And... and for me, my four words are love, home, art, and growth.
[00:05:17] And to me, those mean a lot of things.
[00:05:20] They don't just mean those, like the dictionary definitions of those words.
[00:05:23] But, um, you know, love for me is not just my love for Margaret,
[00:05:28] but also my... my love for my friends and my cats and... and, um, literally everybody.
[00:05:36] And, um, like just the... the idea of loving in general is... is something that's really
[00:05:42] important to me.
[00:05:44] And so if something in my life I encounter is not a loving action or a loving situation,
[00:05:55] that's not for me.
[00:05:56] I... I don't want to be causing harm.
[00:05:57] I don't want to be disrupting people and that kind of thing.
[00:06:00] So it would be something that would... no, I'm not going to do that because that doesn't
[00:06:03] align with me.
[00:06:05] Um, but yeah, uh, the authentic code, um, doing journal entries, doing, um, uh,
[00:06:14] meditations, guided meditations.
[00:06:17] Uh, and these are like kind of the core things for the TBM side of the manifestation world.
[00:06:23] Outside of the manifest... outside of TBM, I think there's a lot of like vision boards
[00:06:28] and, um, positive thinking and like stay... something called like staying in the vortex.
[00:06:35] And I have no idea what the... I mean, I know what a vision board is, but I...
[00:06:39] like Pinterest is great.
[00:06:42] But one of the things that, uh, one of the things that Lacey Phillips, the... the
[00:06:49] creator and curator of TBM says is like, you know, if you, if you clip out, uh, a couple
[00:06:58] walking on a beach and put it on your vision board for your, uh, for your, your partner,
[00:07:04] like you're, you're trying to call in, um, the, the person that you want to marry and
[00:07:10] you put, you put a picture of a couple walking on the beach.
[00:07:12] Well, your brain is seeing two other people walking on the beach.
[00:07:16] Like it's not seeing you.
[00:07:19] And, and it's, you, one of the big things with, with being able to actually call in
[00:07:26] and bring in the things that you want on your manifestation lists is to know that you can
[00:07:31] have that.
[00:07:32] And, and, and part of the reprogramming is, is being able to see, to believe that if that
[00:07:38] person can have it, I can have it.
[00:07:40] That we're the same.
[00:07:41] You gotta find... oh, another big part of it is finding expanders.
[00:07:44] Expanders are other people or other situations that you can relate to and see, like, they're
[00:07:50] just like me.
[00:07:50] They've had the same background.
[00:07:52] They've had the same struggle.
[00:07:54] I've, I've been through that.
[00:07:57] And if they can get through that and now have what I want, I can have that too.
[00:08:02] Yeah, I can't, I can't recommend, uh, uh, to be magnetic enough, even though it's, it's
[00:08:07] kind of pricey and, and, and very silly at times.
[00:08:12] The, it's, it's, it's really great.
[00:08:15] It, um, the, the, the, the meditations, they're called DIs for deep imaginings, uh, are so
[00:08:26] interesting.
[00:08:28] There's quite a big variety of them, but they're all kind of the same.
[00:08:31] Uh, they got the binaural beats going on and it's Lacey Phillips or sometimes a couple
[00:08:39] other people just, you know, giving you a few things to kind of keep you down into a
[00:08:44] theta state and then, um, giving you these prompts that like, I can't even, I can't even
[00:08:52] recall them.
[00:08:53] Cause I feel like, you know, I'm, I'm just in this subconscious like state where I'm
[00:08:58] not even really thinking about anything.
[00:09:00] And that's a cool thing too, is that, uh, the, you can't, you can't consciously, according
[00:09:07] to To Be Magnetic's teachings, you can't consciously get your self-worth up.
[00:09:14] Um, because then everybody would do that.
[00:09:16] We would consciously think let's, let's, I'm just, I'm worth it, you know, but like you
[00:09:22] have to do it through the subconscious.
[00:09:24] Your subconscious has to realize that your worth is there.
[00:09:27] And when you, and when you realize your worth is there, that's when things come in and you
[00:09:32] achieve the things that you, that you want, because you're calling in things that are
[00:09:37] above your self-worth because you're not, you're not there yet.
[00:09:40] Otherwise you'd have it already.
[00:09:42] And, uh, and so you gotta, you gotta do the work to raise your self, your subconscious
[00:09:47] worth.
[00:09:48] And when you're in these specific, uh, deep imaginings, meditations, uh, according to
[00:09:56] them and from my experience, you're, you're at the subconscious level listening to these
[00:10:05] things and it's, it's helping reprogram and create new neural pathways and through
[00:10:11] repetition, those pathways can stick and all the goodness comes in.
[00:10:17] And I can tell you about the list of things that have, that have come into my life since
[00:10:22] I started doing this and it's long.
[00:10:27] There's an interesting use, it's going to sound like an absolute curve ball tangent,
[00:10:32] but there's an interesting use, I think, in something like AI in being able to consume
[00:10:40] for lack of a better word, uh, or, or sort of understand all of these programs because
[00:10:47] there are many.
[00:10:47] And, and, and I think, you know, something that you said earlier about it being silly
[00:10:50] in places, I think this is what's really interesting is, is how bits and pieces we take
[00:10:58] elements from programs, whether it's self-improvement or whether it's, you know, business, marketing,
[00:11:03] um, you know, health, whatever, whatever those things might be, we take the bits that apply
[00:11:09] to us and feel like they speak to us and then we reject or we ignore the bits that feel
[00:11:14] a bit, you know, silly.
[00:11:16] Um, you know, there, there are communities I'm in where some of the language just, it's
[00:11:22] just, it kind of makes my eyes roll into the back of my head.
[00:11:26] But I enjoy the other, you know, 95% of, of, you know, what I'm there for.
[00:11:32] And there's something interesting, I think, about an AI product or, or something that
[00:11:38] can know that about, you know, the things about which you're cynical, um, and the things
[00:11:43] that you were engaged with, and maybe the things that you're okay to be opened up to,
[00:11:47] you know, I think.
[00:11:48] Yeah.
[00:11:48] And to that point, I just, uh, I was listening to Alan Watts yesterday and, uh, two days
[00:11:54] ago, and he said something about how a typical person is only in their best moment is only
[00:12:01] ever willing to accept a 5% change in the way they think.
[00:12:06] Uh, and that's on a good day.
[00:12:08] I've been trying to get my head around the three principles for, uh, feels like a couple
[00:12:18] of years now, which is, um, that the idea of, I mean, I'm, I'm going to get it wrong
[00:12:22] now because it's still, it doesn't quite stick.
[00:12:24] I like the concept about it's, it's the whole thing about how we are not our thoughts.
[00:12:30] Um, and there is an, and how everything is really our perception.
[00:12:39] And so every situation that you are in can be made tolerable or better by realizing that's
[00:12:49] just a thought or a feeling that you were having.
[00:12:51] That's not you.
[00:12:51] That's not your true experience.
[00:12:53] And some people it's blown the doors off for them.
[00:12:56] And for others like me, I get, I understand it on a, I get what they're getting at, but
[00:13:03] it hasn't yet that, that, that token hasn't yet dropped into my personal pachinko machine
[00:13:09] where I've, you know, began.
[00:13:10] And maybe I just have to keep chipping away at 5%, 5%, 5%.
[00:13:14] And suddenly I'll have that awakening, just like the Scotsman, the Scottish welder did,
[00:13:19] when he realized they saw the, is it Michael Neal who had the, why aren't we awesome a
[00:13:24] talk and, uh, and, and talked about it.
[00:13:27] And like, yeah, I don't know, uh, for me, like I, um, both to be magnetic and Enneagram
[00:13:36] work were two of the major things that have gotten me to, um, to really solidify that
[00:13:46] concept you were just talking about, about that, the way our mind works, the thoughts
[00:13:53] that are our train of thought is not ourselves.
[00:13:57] Um, on top of that, also a lot of Alan Watson, Ram Dass, um, books have been, uh, I really
[00:14:06] like there's, there's one concept from Alan Watts about, um, well, he, he just really
[00:14:10] helped me.
[00:14:12] He helped me understand that we're all God.
[00:14:17] And also that, oh man, that God is a metaphor, all the religious stuff that's supposed to
[00:14:25] be taken as metaphor.
[00:14:26] And like, conceptually, I knew that, but I grew up with around so many people that took
[00:14:31] it so literally.
[00:14:33] And I'm, I was just like, what the F are you guys doing?
[00:14:38] Like, but also I couldn't, I could like, everybody took it so literally.
[00:14:44] So I thought that it was supposed to be taken literally, but I could see it was a metaphor
[00:14:50] and, and that it shouldn't be taken literally.
[00:14:54] But my brain couldn't make the connection to where, well, I can just take it literally.
[00:14:59] I can just take it figuratively.
[00:15:00] I don't have to take it literally, but my brain was still holding on to taking it literally.
[00:15:05] So I was super atheist for so long.
[00:15:09] And then I kind of like drifted into the spiritual world, just being like, I know that there's
[00:15:15] things that I don't understand.
[00:15:16] I know that there's things that science doesn't explain, you know, science just doesn't get
[00:15:20] it yet, you know, and, and, you know, there's some sort of energy connection.
[00:15:25] I believe in a collective unconscious.
[00:15:28] I understand that people can maybe not be telepathic, but like can understand each other
[00:15:34] that can vibe that there's something more there.
[00:15:39] And it wasn't until it wasn't until recently that I've, I've been accepting the word God
[00:15:48] and not being triggered by it.
[00:15:50] But this like, now I'm less like, you know, an original translation of the word God is
[00:15:56] creation.
[00:15:58] And our bodies, our cells are literally dividing and creating constantly.
[00:16:04] We are just full of God.
[00:16:07] And like, you know, like whenever, when I was a kid and somebody would say, Oh yeah,
[00:16:11] God is inside you.
[00:16:13] It's like, okay, so the big, the man in the sky is also like a ghost in me.
[00:16:18] Like what the fuck?
[00:16:19] What the what?
[00:16:21] And so anyways, yeah.
[00:16:23] Yeah.
[00:16:25] Um, yeah, I, I have long conversations with, uh, with another, uh, friend, uh, from across
[00:16:31] the pond, uh, on this kind of stuff.
[00:16:34] And, and I think we've, yeah, I think the three of us are oddly enough at a similar
[00:16:39] kind of stage, really.
[00:16:40] I think I went through my hardcore asshole atheist, uh, you know, years just being a
[00:16:47] jerk about it, um, and upsetting people and, and, you know, I mean, not, not like maliciously,
[00:16:52] but certainly not, you know, as kindly as, as I might.
[00:16:55] Um, and then, I don't know, over the last 10 years, maybe a little more, the idea of
[00:17:02] certainty in general has been something that I've kind of rejected of just like, I I'm
[00:17:09] almost made a little bit uncomfortable by, by people who are certain of something because
[00:17:15] you can't really be certain of anything.
[00:17:18] And I know that again, that may, that may sound a little bit woo woo or whatever, but
[00:17:22] I mean, really, um, you know, again, it's, it's all perception and it's all our, how
[00:17:27] we, yeah, how we perceive things.
[00:17:29] Um, but, you know, you, you take a guard, like how, how crazy is it to, to be definite
[00:17:35] about, you know, you, you've got the, the asshole atheists, like now Ricky Gervais,
[00:17:40] I think he's, he's now become one, uh, well, it has been one for years.
[00:17:43] Uh, and, and, um, Richard Dawkins, um, I think at whose feet he sits.
[00:17:50] Um, and that level of, of, it's not just, you know, the burden of proof is on you kind
[00:17:58] of thing, which is one aspect, but it's also the certainty with which they carry that belief.
[00:18:04] And yeah, I think as I get older, religiously, zealously, zealously unreligious, and that
[00:18:12] is a thing I got to my other, um, transatlantic role, one of my other transatlantic friends
[00:18:18] with whom I have these conversations, I got a bit, and it'll be interesting if, if I might
[00:18:23] invite her to listen to this episode, I might not, we'll see.
[00:18:25] Um, we, we got a, I got a bit prickly, uh, over a conversation we were having, and it
[00:18:32] was a little bit to do with, a little bit to do with manifestation, a little bit to
[00:18:37] do with sort of three principles, things, and an aspect to which sort of she views some
[00:18:44] of that stuff, where it is as a religion, it is for her, she holds it with, with zeal,
[00:18:53] like, and, and, you know, we, and, and I've tried to say, like, that's not my experience
[00:18:58] or whatever, and, and, you know, that doesn't ring true for me, or, you know, that, that,
[00:19:02] that isn't how the world works, because I think her interpretation of it is perhaps
[00:19:08] slightly different from, you know, from yours, or from others, and it's, it was,
[00:19:15] I found it a difficult conversation, because for her, there was that certainty, there was
[00:19:20] that degree of, well, no, this is, this is science, and again, like, that's, that's her
[00:19:26] science, that's science that can be founded, and can be accessed, and can be read, but
[00:19:29] it's not, you know, what I can identify with, and I kind of realised, like, just as a shower
[00:19:35] thought, like, this is a religion to her, she has had the thing, like, we had, she's had,
[00:19:41] you know, Catholicism, or whatever other religions, yeah, yeah, she's, she's, she's heard
[00:19:47] the, you know, the, the, the Jesus stuff before, and rejected it, and, and, and, because I tried
[00:19:53] to say to her, it's, you know, I think what you have is a faith, what you have is, and,
[00:19:58] and that kind of bridled with her, like, she didn't really appreciate that, but it's, it's,
[00:20:03] it's that sort of understanding, again, that, like, some beliefs are just held really, you
[00:20:09] know, with that zeal, and okay, like, it might, it might upset someone to call it a religion,
[00:20:14] and that's fair enough, because that's a big, that's a big word with a big capital letter
[00:20:18] R at the beginning, but it is something that you can hold with zeal, and hold with certainty,
[00:20:25] and, like, we get back to that certainty thing again, and it's also about proselytising,
[00:20:30] which is one of the most awkward words to say, but, you know, you know that, I mean, you
[00:20:37] will know this, and, and I, I've been there as well, my brother's been there, lots of people
[00:20:41] who want to improve my life have told, I've had this experience, there is nothing like the zeal
[00:20:47] of the converted, oh yeah, oh my gosh, the, oh, I mean, I shouldn't, I shouldn't reveal this, but
[00:20:55] uh, this, um, I've, I've a, I've a good friend that we, uh, we want to start making music together,
[00:21:03] and, um, nobody take this, this is, this is copyrighted, uh, but, TM, TM, TM, TM, TM, uh,
[00:21:10] we want to call our first album the zeal of the newly enlightened, yes, yeah, yeah, because I,
[00:21:17] I definitely, um, uh, and is super guilty of that, finding a new thing, having any sort of
[00:21:25] success with it, and just wanting to shout it from the rooftops, and that everybody know about
[00:21:30] this cool thing, I've, I am absolutely the same, 100% the same, um, and I think it's natural,
[00:21:38] and I think it comes from the best of places, it does, it really does, it's like, this has worked
[00:21:43] for me, yeah, and what's so hard, exactly, and what's so hard is it comes back to my thing about
[00:21:49] the AI, it's like, it, it, you have your bits of this bento box of stuff that you can, that, that,
[00:21:59] that resonates with you, and then there's other little bits of that, that you're like, oh, I
[00:22:04] ignore that bit, and other people are going to have those, and it might just be that the bit
[00:22:07] they go, ah, I'm not engaging with that, that might be the linchpin, you know, that might be
[00:22:11] the thing that you really connected with, that helped you understand it, and yeah, it's, it's,
[00:22:16] it's, it's really tricky trying to help people find these things, and I think, I think, yeah,
[00:22:22] all you can do is, is sort of, you, it's kind of be that person who's like, wait for them to
[00:22:28] discover it, I know, and then, I hate that, you've got to have that moment of, oh, you discovered
[00:22:35] that, did you, okay, well done, like, like, okay, I've been telling you about it for three years,
[00:22:39] but you just discovered it, did you, okay, uh, in the same way that the kids nowadays will be like,
[00:22:45] have you heard of this, um, this sitcom on Netflix called Friends? It's like, it's an oldie,
[00:22:53] but I like it, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, you know, I'm glad you've just discovered it,
[00:22:58] but some of us were there 20-something years ago, yeah, um, we VCR'd this kid, yeah, exactly,
[00:23:05] you've kind of got to wait for people, I think, to find it, and then be like, cool, now you're here,
[00:23:11] let's have a chat about it, let's, let's, you know, let's, let's get on this together, yeah,
[00:23:15] my biggest problem is, is, uh, is with friends that aren't looking to work on themselves,
[00:23:22] like, I, I, I love working on myself, and trying to find a new thing that takes me to the next level,
[00:23:28] and, and keep chugging along at this, and, and then, I, you know, I get, something works for
[00:23:34] me, and I get excited, and I want to share it with a friend, and they're like, oh, yeah, that's,
[00:23:37] that's really cool, and, and then they don't, they just keep doing their lines, yeah, they,
[00:23:43] yeah, it's like, but, but it's so cool, and also, don't you see how this could make your life
[00:23:50] easier? Like, you are struggling right now, my dude, like, you're, you're pushing yourself just
[00:23:56] barely to get by, and then, you know, that's the whole reason why they can't put in that extra
[00:24:00] effort, because they have, putting in all of their effort to just get through the day, and, uh, like,
[00:24:06] and I, I so relate, I've been there before, and I, I often, like, try and think back, I'm like, how,
[00:24:12] how did I get out of that? And getting divorced, that was a big, that was a big help. Well, there's,
[00:24:20] there's a, there's a thing there about, um, about sort of ruptures, yes, uh, and, and sometimes it
[00:24:26] takes, it takes those ruptures to, to have a realization. Um, there's a book, which is, like a
[00:24:33] lot of, if you'll excuse me, American sort of self-help books, there's a lot of, not just God,
[00:24:38] which is fine, but there's a lot of, specifically, a lot of church in a lot of books that are in the
[00:24:43] sort of self-help genre, which, you know, again, wrong, I was a little, but there's a book called
[00:24:47] The Second Mountain, which talks about, it's a really interesting concept where you, what usually
[00:24:58] happens is people live the sort of the usual life, you know, they, they do their work, they,
[00:25:02] maybe they, they get to a point where they're, they're quite successful. It doesn't have to be,
[00:25:08] you know, necessarily in terms of work, but, you know, where, where they're quite successful,
[00:25:12] and then they get to a point where they want to start giving back, and that's The Second Mountain,
[00:25:16] and it's all about how, if you are someone who works in knowledge or, like, it's, it's the time
[00:25:24] when you want to write the book, it's the time when you want to create the course, it's the time
[00:25:28] when you want to proselytize, you know, and spread your big idea, and, and it's, it's, it's quite
[00:25:35] interesting. I think I'm still trying to find, I think I thought I was on it, and I'm not there
[00:25:42] yet. I, you know, as I, as I'm discovering, and, you know, to your point about effort, like, I'm,
[00:25:48] I'm on this, this journey, or this little quest to try and not necessarily do less, but
[00:26:00] be more effortless. Yes. And again, you know, there's, there's people in my sphere who are like,
[00:26:07] finally, Mark, we've been saying this for ages, or whatever, because I've, you know,
[00:26:13] so quick possible tangent, because we may talk about this later, but I've just,
[00:26:20] what's really interesting, so I, I'm consolidating all of my, you know, my different identities,
[00:26:25] and they're all going into one place, and so everything now is on one website,
[00:26:30] the, the hallmark of everything, and it go, there's stuff there that goes back to 2008.
[00:26:38] If I wanted to, there's stuff that could go back further, but some of my writing,
[00:26:41] as I discovered yesterday, is absolutely intolerable. Some of my stuff from, like,
[00:26:48] 2006, 2007, which I managed to find through the Wayback Machine, oh, oh, god, I hate that version
[00:26:54] of me. Oh, really, really obnoxious. Anyway, I love all versions of you, Mark. Thank you,
[00:27:01] someone has to. It's you and my mum, so thank you for being there. Yeah, my pleasure. What I
[00:27:07] discovered was, I haven't changed in, in 20 years, because I was looking at stuff again through the
[00:27:21] Wayback Machine, bits of software, you know, software products and things that I'd created,
[00:27:26] I call them products, but, like, software projects that I'd created that had, you know, brands and
[00:27:30] names and all sorts of stuff. I have not stopped. I, I, creating, coming up with ideas, executing
[00:27:38] on the thing, and then, you know, I don't know, get bored, get distracted, whatever, and on to
[00:27:43] the next thing. And it was, it was just really interesting to look at that and go, yeah, like,
[00:27:49] I'm still in the same patterns. And, okay, it gets me this, like, ridiculous archive of stuff
[00:27:57] that I can go back to, memories I can live, or relive, but ultimately, I'm no, you know, I'm
[00:28:04] worse off than I was when I had a job. I'm, I'm happier. Yeah, definitely happier, definitely
[00:28:11] more content, I have way more autonomy. But I still haven't found my thing. And that's because
[00:28:18] I, you know, part of the problem is I keep looking for my thing instead of actually just...
[00:28:23] That, that perfectly segues into my second piece of follow-up. We're still in follow-up.
[00:28:30] But before that, you mentioned The Second Mountain. And that reminds me of a book I'm
[00:28:34] actually listening to right now, for the second time, which is called Falling Upward by Richard
[00:28:39] Rohr. And he is a, he's an expert in Enneagram work. And that's how I found out about him. And
[00:28:46] then I just stumbled upon his book called Falling Upward, which is about the second phase of life.
[00:28:52] And, like, the first phase of life is all about, like, finding relationships, finding a job,
[00:28:58] finding your place in the world. The second phase of life is to go on your hero's journey, get,
[00:29:05] you know, leave home, leave the safety of that, go and do something bigger and better, and grow.
[00:29:13] And so The Second Mountain sounds, sounds very similar in that regard. But
[00:29:23] the doing, the difficult doing that you mentioned, this is, this is a big, this is a big reason why
[00:29:30] I wanted to talk to you about Enneagram, the Enneagram and, and find out what your number was
[00:29:37] and, and talk to you about it. Because this is, and I'm so excited that we're the same number,
[00:29:41] because it's just gonna, I don't have to go into a whole bunch of extra stuff, because this is not
[00:29:45] an Enneagram podcast. But the Enneagram, the nine, so the quickly about the Enneagram, there's nine
[00:29:53] numbers, each of them, there's, there's two separate triads of, of thinking, feeling and
[00:30:03] doing, you're either dominant or repressed in one of those two things. And so Enneagram nines,
[00:30:11] the three, six and nine are in this middle triangle that have the same repression as they do
[00:30:19] their dominant center. And we, as nines, are both doing repressed and doing dominant. So
[00:30:28] everything, you know, everybody does things. And so if you're doing repressed, that doesn't mean
[00:30:32] you don't do anything. What it means is that you don't do the thing that you really need to be
[00:30:37] doing. And what you're doing doesn't bring in... Oh, I feel seen. Yeah. Oh, man. If you want to
[00:30:48] feel seen in like, kind of the worst, but best way, deep dive into Enneagram, because it's like,
[00:30:54] whoa. Oh, I mean, I've Yeah, I've got a big expensive report that I that my friend
[00:30:59] enabled me to do a couple of years ago. And I've got to, I've got to find out where it is and dive
[00:31:05] back into it. Because yeah, yeah. So yeah, so a nine is doing dominant, which means we,
[00:31:12] we bring in information by doing. That's how we understand the world. We don't,
[00:31:18] thinking and feeling are there, and they support doing, but it's by us actually doing
[00:31:25] that we gain knowledge, gain experience, understand, comprehend the world. But then
[00:31:32] we don't use doing to functionally get what we're after. And so we have to, we have to do things to
[00:31:43] bring up our doing center, and get it into something that's productive and useful for us.
[00:31:50] For me, a lot of the tips that have been helpful for me have been like, making, making priority
[00:31:57] lists, making, making lists. And, and thinking about what is, what is it I'm supposed to what,
[00:32:04] what, what is it I need to be doing right now? And or if if you're presented with options,
[00:32:11] what is mine to do? And since, since we are doing dominant and doing repressed, like,
[00:32:22] doing is going to be a lot on our mind. And it's, you know, the idea of this podcast is all about
[00:32:27] doing and what we're doing and how we're doing it. I think that this is going to be,
[00:32:33] it's, it's both us not actually doing the thing, but, but talking about it and thinking about it
[00:32:43] and feeling about it. So I want to dive into that doing that is not necessarily productive.
[00:32:52] So because that, that again, makes me go a little bit cold. What do you mean by cold?
[00:32:59] Again, it feels, I think, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in a point where I've done so much doing
[00:33:06] over the last few years. Because it's felt like control, it's felt like,
[00:33:12] well, you know, in order for me to achieve, you know, whatever, whatever it is,
[00:33:18] um, get it, getting more business in, maybe making myself a bit more financially secure
[00:33:23] that has to involve a lot of doing. And so my doing is coming up with ideas. My doing is,
[00:33:28] is creating brands is creating, um, series of things. It's creating commitments.
[00:33:35] And so creating commitments. Oh my God. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah,
[00:33:42] very much, very much that. Um, and for a lot of, for a lot of what, what I do and I,
[00:33:49] because I partly I move so, so quickly, it's not as if I get, it would be very easy to,
[00:33:55] to read this and say, you get distracted and you go on to the next thing. But actually what happens
[00:33:59] is I evolve. And then that, that idea no longer quite serves the new evolution. Um, and so you,
[00:34:08] I end up with this, with all of this doing, but I think one of the things that if I stop and
[00:34:12] actually really think about it, very few of the bigger opportunities that I've had, if any have
[00:34:20] actually come from any of the doing, they've come from being, they've come from being in spaces.
[00:34:28] They've come from talking to people. You know, one of my biggest opportunities that I, um,
[00:34:34] I have at the moment that, you know, that I'm continuing to, to, to work with is it came from
[00:34:40] a talk I gave, which I was asked to do, not because any of my doing, but because of, you know,
[00:34:46] they didn't want to know about the things that, you know, the doing, um, they wanted to know about
[00:34:50] me and my story. Um, and that's what the talk was. And it just so happens that I had, thank you. It
[00:34:56] just so happened that I had, you know, services there that one or two people thought might be
[00:35:01] useful. And so again, like all of this doing all of this creation, all of this writing,
[00:35:06] podcasting, recording, planning, thinking, worrying, obsessing, um, all of this debt,
[00:35:15] all of this, all of that really has, has, has been because I find it so difficult to believe
[00:35:26] that things can happen without the doing. Yes. That, that is such a nine thing to say.
[00:35:35] Such a Samantha. So you end up with this. Yeah. With this unproductive doing. Yeah,
[00:35:42] absolutely. A big part of, uh, something I've learned recently about the doing,
[00:35:48] um, is with the Enneagram work is because we, um, process the world by doing,
[00:36:00] we actually have to do those unproductive doing things to get us to understand the thing that we
[00:36:08] actually should be doing. So like, uh, an example for me is, is often like, I'll make a list of all
[00:36:15] the things I need to do in the day. And, you know, it'll be like, um, all right, I need,
[00:36:20] I need to work on my house. I need, I'm, I'm, I'm building a new bedroom and I got to, um,
[00:36:26] I got to feed these dogs that were dog sitting and take them for a walk. I need to, um,
[00:36:33] make myself lunch, et cetera. A few more, a few other things. I'm like, okay, it's time for me to
[00:36:38] work on the cottage. I'm going to go out to the shed and grab a couple of tools. I get to the
[00:36:43] shed and it's a disaster, this stuff everywhere. And it's like, I can't find the thing. Well,
[00:36:48] obviously I need to clean to, to be able to get, to find the thing. And so I, I'm doing this
[00:36:53] cleaning task that was not on my list, but, um, it helps me, it helps me process. It helps me
[00:37:04] prepare myself and feel better about the things that I'm doing. So I'm, I'm being unproductive,
[00:37:11] but also being productive, like I'm being productive. I'm cleaning. It's,
[00:37:15] that's a good thing, but that's not, that's not what I set myself out to do today. Um,
[00:37:20] and so I'm distracting myself from my goals. I mean, I'm taking myself away from accomplishing
[00:37:26] what I'm ultimately wanting to do. Like finishing this bedroom is way more important than keeping
[00:37:32] the shed clean, but in the long scheme of things, but I need to do that today in order for me to
[00:37:40] get any work done on the bedroom because I need my, cause my brain is now not tidy because I'm
[00:37:46] thinking about the shed and how I can't find anything. So it's, it's sort of what, what you
[00:37:51] would call, uh, we, uh, what Americans call puttering and we would call pottering. Uh,
[00:37:56] I think it's, it's, it's, you know, there, there is a, there is a productivity, there is a utility
[00:38:01] in that. Um, and I, yeah, I, I liked that, that idea of, cause I've, I've got into that sometimes
[00:38:08] where, you know, if I'm working on something in the brain wants to pop up a little idea,
[00:38:12] like a little Jack Russell Terrier and go, Hey, here's a, here's a thing you can do is rather
[00:38:17] than try and push that down and repress it, or, or, you know, push it away is to note it down
[00:38:23] and actually put it somewhere so that the, the, the loop is closed. And so that there is actually
[00:38:30] some kind of, not necessarily action there, but at least you've, you know, recognize that idea.
[00:38:35] Um, if I think about my to-do list, if I think about my, there's my concrete to do this, my real
[00:38:41] to-do list, and then there's my sort of vague, I'm supposed to do that. I should, there are the
[00:38:46] things I'm supposed to put on my to-do list that are sort of over here and wibbly wobbly and wishy
[00:38:52] washy. Um, and if I think about either of those, I just want to work on my website and that's,
[00:39:03] that, you know, and I'm very good at convincing myself that I can just do this now or no, no,
[00:39:11] no, I need this for my work, which is, which is the biggest lie. Um, because again, it's,
[00:39:21] it's, you know, having to remember, like I didn't, I haven't got where I am because I have a nice
[00:39:27] looking website. Um, and, but it's so, so hard to, to, to, to, to not do that and to, you know,
[00:39:38] edit the episodes that you're supposed to edit or, or, or register that domain name for a client or
[00:39:45] do whatever the thing is. Um, and I, yeah, and so what, what I think is, is, I guess it's got to
[00:39:52] come down to, and I think we maybe been dancing around a little bit is, is about priorities,
[00:39:57] but not in terms of that arms crossed, you've got to figure out what your priorities are,
[00:40:04] mister, but in terms of actually gently saying, well, what is important to you?
[00:40:11] This job over here now does not seem important, but it serves this higher goal of getting more,
[00:40:18] for me again, you know, being more financially secure. Well, if I finish the jobs that I need
[00:40:24] to do, then that frees me up to then do the next bit of the work that can then hopefully bring in
[00:40:31] more business or it makes sure my customer satisfaction is higher because, you know,
[00:40:35] like there's all these things. And so, yeah, I don't know whether that was where you were
[00:40:40] thinking of going with this, but in terms of connecting it back to what those core priorities
[00:40:46] are, like, that's what we've got to do with these jobs. Exactly. Exactly. And, um, not to, uh,
[00:40:53] overpress on my zeal of the converted, but, um, that's, that's the biggest help from to be
[00:41:01] magnetic for me is it gets you to, to journal in the right way that has, has really good prompts
[00:41:08] and gets you to make lists of the things that you really want. And it gets you to think about
[00:41:15] what you actually need to do to get there. And it, and it's like, they're happy for you to do
[00:41:23] long-term, um, uh, far off goals. Like I have the, one of my manifestations is this compound
[00:41:31] that we talked about last episode about like the, the, the big place or the buildup and the,
[00:41:36] and the resort type thing. And that like, that's, you know, my 10, 15 year plan, whatever,
[00:41:41] but they really want you to focus more on like six to nine months, six to 12 months.
[00:41:48] What, what can you conceivably bring in to your life? Cause, cause you can kind of
[00:41:53] get your mind around that more. You can see the steps to get there. You can,
[00:41:57] you can more easily, you know, it's only a 5% change instead of a 35% change to get to,
[00:42:03] you know, a big thing far off. And so it, uh, yeah, I love it.
[00:42:10] And that, that sort of makes me want to reconnect, I think with, and it, again,
[00:42:15] it comes back to the, the, the bento box of ideas. Um, I want to reconnect, I think with the
[00:42:21] atomic habits book because there is something in there. Um, that I know is the, is, is more than
[00:42:33] the nugget of a good idea. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's absolutely the nucleus of, of,
[00:42:37] of a great thing. It's the small repeatable actions and don't worry about the outcome.
[00:42:42] Really worry about the, worry about the doing, but the doing in the right way,
[00:42:46] worry about the setting up the habits based on the intentions that you want and just getting that,
[00:42:53] um, little increment over time. But, but, but, you know, facing, basing everything on your
[00:43:00] output rather than the outcome. And I love all of that. And I think at some point I got a little
[00:43:08] bit, I think maybe lost in the implementation from his perspective, because what a lot of
[00:43:14] these books don't really go into is the assumption that they make about the life that you lead.
[00:43:23] A lot of these are written by and for people who have virtual assistants, um, or they're men who
[00:43:32] can go and do the men things while the women do the women things. And I'm being as assholey gendered
[00:43:39] as I mean to in that, um, there, you know, there, there is, and then, you know, they're often,
[00:43:46] they're often fathers, uh, and they don't really talk, you know, they might vaguely talk about
[00:43:51] being a better father or being a better whatever, but it's somehow all of that stuff doesn't really
[00:43:58] enter into it. Um, and they talk about these various things that you can do. And I think
[00:44:04] few of them acknowledge, yes, but some of us also have to take, like, we don't have someone who can
[00:44:11] take care of our lives when, you know, when we're busy doing the habit stuff. Um, we also need to
[00:44:18] do, you know, with these people who talk about, you only have to do the things that you want to
[00:44:21] do. Not really. I don't want to do the dishes, but if I don't do the dishes, the dishes won't
[00:44:25] get done. I don't, I don't want to clean the poop out of the litter tray every morning, but if I
[00:44:30] don't do it, you want to have cats and dishes. And so that that's, yes, I like that. Thank you.
[00:44:41] Yeah. That's the point that connects us back to the wider, uh, to the wider goal. Yes. Um,
[00:44:47] but yeah, I think, I think where I got a little jaded and where I think I need to pull back
[00:44:52] is not so much worrying about how these people implement their, their idea,
[00:44:59] because atomic habits is a great idea. I should worry less about how he implements it with his
[00:45:04] team around him and think about, okay, how can I make it work for myself as someone who is a single
[00:45:12] person who doesn't have a VA, um, who's got to fit life around, you know, around these things,
[00:45:18] how can I make that work? And I think, again, it's back to that thing I said earlier on about
[00:45:23] like this, whether it's an AI or whatever that helps us take all of these different concepts,
[00:45:28] these, these things, and just, yeah, helps us tweak them so that we can build our own
[00:45:32] little bento box of, of the stuff that works for us in our lives.
[00:45:36] I'm so excited to see what you do with, uh, with AI and how, because you've been,
[00:45:43] you've been using it in some really interesting ways. And I'm excited to explore further in this
[00:45:49] podcast about what, what, and how you're making that happen. Cause you, you showed me, you know,
[00:45:55] the, the photo of, or the, um, the, the cover art for this podcast. And I had one tiny little tweak
[00:46:02] and you sent it through some AI thing and did it. And you know, like it was just, it was,
[00:46:09] it was fantastic. And I was like, Whoa, how, how, what, like, did you type in remove signposts
[00:46:16] behind letter? Oh, like what happened? What did you do? How did that happen? And so like, uh,
[00:46:21] I'm really excited to get further into that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, we, we should definitely
[00:46:26] sit and have a, have an hour long conversation about AI. Cause I think, I think we could,
[00:46:30] cause we haven't got through like any of that stuff that we're going to talk about this week.
[00:46:36] Which is, which is absolutely fine that they will move on to next week. Uh, or they won't,
[00:46:41] I hope they do cause those look interesting. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there is some stuff there.
[00:46:46] Um, yeah, I, I, I feel like the not doing is going to be more and more of a, of a staple,
[00:46:54] I think for me. And it's coming with some guilt, like, and, and I, uh, you know, I have to be okay
[00:46:59] with, with that. You know, there's this podcast idea that I put a fair amount of work into, um,
[00:47:08] and recorded, you know, four episodes of, and I've now got to figure out what I tell those people.
[00:47:15] Um, and there's a part of me that wants to still put them out somewhere
[00:47:21] because you could always have a limited series. Yeah, absolutely. Um, but you know,
[00:47:26] there's stuff I recorded in January for beware of the leopard with, um, two internet people
[00:47:32] that I think you will know, uh, that I haven't done anything with and they would have forgotten
[00:47:37] about it by now, but maybe not. And also that's not the point. It was, you know, there were,
[00:47:43] there were really lovely conversations and we just haven't been able to find the time,
[00:47:49] not this one actually just isn't just on me, um, to, to find the time to do them.
[00:47:53] But I think I've done so much doing with, with bramble over the last few months with getting
[00:47:59] that on its feet and there's still lots and lots and lots and lots to do. Um, but I think getting
[00:48:06] to, yeah, this point in my, my, uh, my evolution where I'm focusing on doing less, but also having
[00:48:16] to, yeah, deal with the guilt, a little bit of the guilt of what that means. Um, yeah, it's a,
[00:48:25] it's a, it's a weird time. If I may be, if I may be so bold and, and, you know, not my place and
[00:48:35] not even my ability, but I would so love to absolve you of all of that guilt. Like that
[00:48:41] you have nothing at all to feel guilty for. You're doing the best you can. You're doing
[00:48:50] so much and, and it's all really great. And you don't owe anybody anything at all.
[00:48:58] Like, and I'm saying that as a question, but it's not, uh, it like, uh,
[00:49:05] the, the, our, our burden as creatives, as, as people with ideas, uh, especially
[00:49:13] people who have ideas that can also do something and that can make those ideas happen.
[00:49:19] That's a struggle, man, because we, we come up with so many cool things to do.
[00:49:25] Like, I still want to make a new wedding video for my wedding a year and a half ago.
[00:49:29] Like, and it, you know, it's on my list. It's good. I want to make a, I want to make an over,
[00:49:36] uh, a vacation video from that massive trip I took. And, and I made a bunch of small ones
[00:49:42] because it was easy to do and just like on a train ride. But then now I'm back home and I
[00:49:47] want to look at all of the clips and make a big, uh, you know, video of the whole thing. And that's,
[00:49:52] it's just, I want to put time into, I want it to be good. So I want to put time into it. And
[00:49:56] there's only so much time and you have to, you have to forgive yourself that there's only so
[00:50:02] much time and you can't do it all. And you're going to have great ideas that you can't do.
[00:50:06] And you're going to have great ideas that you're going to start and can't finish.
[00:50:09] And that's just fine. One of the things that I'm aware of as time goes on is how much time I did
[00:50:18] have that I don't really, you know, because I, I've, I've sort of, you know, I'd spent time
[00:50:24] admonishing myself for not doing certain things or not doing enough or whatever, ironically enough.
[00:50:29] Um, but when I look back on some of these projects and some of the things that I did,
[00:50:36] I had way, way more free time than I do now. And some of that is cause I, I,
[00:50:47] as I say that I sort of half reject it because there is no such thing as not enough time.
[00:50:53] It's all about priorities. It's all, you know, there, there is time, there is time enough to
[00:50:57] exercise. There is time enough to, to plan, um, to, you know, to, to make sure that the good,
[00:51:02] the right stuff is in the fridge. There is time, you know, it's, it's all about the,
[00:51:10] again, going back to those priorities. And I think, yeah, there, there is some, some work
[00:51:14] to be done for me, you know, um, of, of, and I tried to do this earlier in the year of going
[00:51:22] back to those core things of what do I want out of life? And then, but I think what I've got to
[00:51:28] do is actually think about it less in terms of doing and more in terms of, I don't know
[00:51:35] what the alternative is feeling, um, and thinking and thinking. Yeah. Well, that will be, that will
[00:51:43] be something to explore next week, I guess. Yeah. Uh, one, one quick thing that, that made me think
[00:51:49] of, hopefully this doesn't make us go on for another hour, but, uh, I did a, I did a TBM DI,
[00:51:55] it was called feature self. And it has you think about yourself in one year, in 10 years and at the
[00:52:02] end of your life. And it asks you at the end of your life's spot, how old are you? And I did this
[00:52:10] a year ago, I was 37 and immediately it just felt right. I thought of myself as 87. I'm like,
[00:52:19] I'm on my deathbed. I'm just peacefully kind of fading away. I'm 87 years old. And I'm like,
[00:52:26] when I came out of it and I was like, kind of processing later, I was like,
[00:52:30] that means I got 50 years left. I'm not even halfway through. And like, you know, the first,
[00:52:36] the first chunk of my life, I was a baby. The second chunk of my life, my twenties and, and,
[00:52:41] and a little bit past that I was trapped in an abusive marriage and, and stuck. And like,
[00:52:48] I feel like I've only been myself for a few years and I've got 50 more years. I'm like, so excited.
[00:52:55] I got all this potential to do. And, um, I, I, I see that for you too. Like you had to go through
[00:53:03] all of those things. You had to, uh, quote unquote, waste that time in order to get here where you are,
[00:53:11] or else you wouldn't be you. You wouldn't have done that otherwise. So, um, you got, you got
[00:53:18] all the time in the world, man. Oh, well, um, if you'd like to, uh, you dear listener would like to
[00:53:25] continue to, to stroll with us along this little journey as we figure out what we're going to do
[00:53:29] with our lives, uh, with, with our remaining, uh, 50% of our lives, um, then you can find us
[00:53:35] at convergencepod.com, um, and, uh, find ways to get in touch with us. And, um, as we, as we move
[00:53:41] on, I'm sure we'll find ways to, for you to, to actually say hello. Um, but, um, wow, what,
[00:53:47] what a pleasure and who knows where we'll be and what we'll talk about next week.
[00:53:51] Yeah, hopefully something on the list.
[00:54:13] Uh, this is thing, uh, actually Enneagram related about people who are doing requests and
[00:54:20] counting down. Uh, but usually it's just a three, two, one go. And, uh, it's just a way to kind of
[00:54:26] get you out of your, out of your stuckness and be like, okay, I've been sitting here on the couch,
[00:54:32] man. I really don't want to get up, but I got to go do the dishes and get ready for bed.
[00:54:37] Three, two, one go. And then just, yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a good, it's a good tactic.
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