Convergence

Brendan: Ooh, it's game time.

Mark: Oh my god.

I mean, are we gonna pretend that
we're, you know, that we've got

things to say, or are we just
gonna go straight into the songs?

Brendan: I actually do have things to say.

Mark: I have things to say.

Brendan: the gym?

Mark: four days out of five last week,
and the day I didn't gym, I canaled.

this week

Brendan: Is that like a walk on the canal?

Or what's your Okay.

Mark: yeah, it was.

and, uh, that's because my lift to
the gym wasn't happening last week.

And then my lift to the gym wasn't
happening two days out this week.

So I, I, uh, did the same and
this morning I didn't, or last

night I did not get much sleep.

So I didn't think I'd
have that much in me.

So I went for a 30 minute cycle and a
15 minute cross trainer or elliptical,

which is usually opposite of what I do.

And I was like, you know what?

I didn't think I had whatever it is.

I had some of it and I brought it.

Brendan: Nice.

Mark: quite happy with that I
did I didn't know that I had that

much to bring and then I brung it.

Brendan: You brought

Mark: pretty pretty pretty pleased
with that so yeah, thank you.

Brendan: I'm glad to hear it.

Uh, I am curious to talk at some
point about robots making podcasts.

Mark: Yeah Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah

Brendan: of, uh, of the,
the doom of our industry.

Mark: Yes.

So, uh, last week, Brendan and I had,
or this week or whenever it was, we had,

Brendan: who knows?

Time is

Mark: a circle, we, we, we did,

we did, uh, we had some WhatsApp
voice note conversations.

Um, I I've noticed the final, I like this.

This is very, this is extremely nine.

but I like the fact
that whatever medium I.

Initiate a message and you
always reply in the same medium.

Brendan: Oh yeah,

Mark: Yeah.

You like, if I do a voice note,
you always do a voice note back.

Brendan: that, that, that is true.

I, uh, yeah, I default to text.

whenever I initiate, but yeah, if
somebody sends out something, I

will mimic that style because I'm
like, Oh, they want it this way.

That's great.

Mark: They want it that way.

Yeah.

but yes, we had a conversation
about robots making podcasts.

and when I went out for my walk
yesterday, I loaded my phone

up with one I made myself.

I threw it the Molly whiskers book and I

said.

Well, I didn't say anything.

I just threw it in the book and then hit
the button to make a thing out of it.

And, Yeah, it's interesting the bits
that it gets wrong the bits that it

Brendan: elaborate.

That's not just text to speech then.

Then it's actually.

Making more or

Mark: a full summary.

it is a level of over and
above the likes of chat GPT.

So I could throw my book into
chat GPT, which I actually have.

and I could tell it to give me a summary
and plot summary and all that kind

of stuff, and it would do a fine job.

What this notebook LM thing
does is it then turns that

into a two handed discussion,

Brendan: right Right like

this

Mark: with lots of cliches,

Brendan: Oh like this

Mark: Yeah, yeah, like lots
of kind of crappy, metaphors

to help you understand things.

Oh, it's like this.

And it's like, no, we didn't
really need the metaphor.

We understood what the thing is.

and it's, so it's, it's, it's form.

Once you've heard a few, you start
to see how formulate they are.

and because I knew the,
Content intimately.

Well, I was able to sort of pick
apart and go that character didn't

do that That happened, but it
didn't happen with that character

initiating that, as you said, it did

Brendan: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Mark: and the other,

Brendan: which is very AI to do

Mark: well, I, yeah, I find that odd
considering it's very easy to, it

must just be in, however, the systems,
you know, quote, unquote, understand.

but like it got the gist and
it got like what it did better.

Is understand the emotional kind of
beats than it did the actual facts,

which, you know, maybe concerning
to some considering notebook LM

is meant to be a research tool.

so there is that, and the fact that
it, it mushes facts, but it kind

of gets the sentiment, like you've
got the sentiment of the book.

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: But then, like, I don't know,
it's not good enough yet if you

actually, like, like I said, if you
actually know the subject matter, you

can tell, like, it's not that great.

And a few of them I've, I've listened
to and I've gone, you're kind of

talking around this topic, but I
don't, you haven't actually told

me adequately what the thing is
that you're then going to riff on.

So they kind of do this riff.

Brendan: Okay.

Mark: a topic or like on an article
or whatever and it'll be, you know,

welcome to another deep dive today We are
talking about this article that we got

sent and then And then they don't always
like actually give you enough context.

They sort of just start riffing
and it's like but yeah, it's

interesting and it's only gonna

get

Brendan: like, it sounds like when, uh,
Hollywood makes a movie about something

that you know, you know a little bit
about, and it's like, oh my God, sure,

they got the kind of basics, right?

But the details are way mushy and weird.

Mark: Yeah.

yeah, they've, they've mangled two
characters together and made them one

person and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Brendan: and then they say, oh,
it, it could, that's the only way

it could be done on the screen

Mark: yeah, yeah,

Brendan: in podcast form.

Mark: I was wondering about this,
like, how, how many years are we out

from a Lord of the Rings full series?

Because there's the, the Amazon one,
which is, you know, they're using

whatever they can, um, I guess.

I don't know this, but my guess is
they're trying to make it look as

much like the New Line films, but
I'm, um, I'm guessing they don't have

The rights, otherwise they would be
telling that kind of, I don't know.

Brendan: Yeah.

They don't, they only have
the rights to the Ilian.

Mark: yeah, Silmarillion.

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: but they've tried to make it look
as much like the films as possible,

except for the bits that are like,
Oh, that's laughable green screen.

Brendan: Oh, no.

Mark: Oh, there's a couple of
bits where you're like, Oh no.

Oh, that's oh

Brendan: Yeah, it's kind of funny, like,
I have a few friends that are super

into the books and even the movies, I've
never heard anybody, like, love the show.

Rings of

power.

Mark: it's all right.

Brendan: Yeah.

I mean, I guess that's,
that's Hollywood for you.

Mark: I haven't seen the new series
because I no longer have amazon prime.

but i'm sure it's fine I'm sure it's i'm
sure it's you know, eminently watchable.

But yeah,

Brendan: yeah.

Yeah.

More, more TV for your eyeballs.

Mark: yeah, there's plenty of it.

There's there's enough there's enough

Brendan: I had a slight,
follow up, I guess, for the,

for my, my free will rants.

Mark: Excellent.

Brendan: one thing I kind of feel
like I haven't really said, but

it's the distinction that I feel
like would, help people understand

my perspective on free will.

Is that the no free will kind of
only applies to your past decisions.

not, not only, I mean, like, sure, on
one hand it's like, yeah, they're set

in stone, they happened in the past.

you used your will, you, you,
you went through life and

Mark: You

chose, you

Brendan: Yeah, you chose, you chose
your thing and, but then, yeah, you

were always going to choose that thing.

And so, the thing in the past,
you, you can still learn things

and change things for the future.

Change.

You can, you can, gain more knowledge,
gain more perspective, gain more

understanding, and that can shape what
your no free will will be in the future.

Like if you choose not to learn
things, then you're just going to

keep doing what you would have done.

Mark: yeah, I think that's interesting.

I think there are, to me, there are
different levels of choice then.

It's like, so been playing this,
uh, or replaying this game, the

Stanley parable, and there's this,
the whole, the whole sort of game at

the beginning is really about choice.

And, cause the character rates
what you do before you've decided.

What you'll do.

So, I won't spoil it cause it's
worth playing, but, uh, the, the,

the best example being, you walk
into a room and there are two doors

in front of you, and the narrator
says something along the lines of

Stanley walked through the left door.

You haven't chosen yet.

So you can choose to walk through
the right door and then all sorts

of fun things happen in the game.

and so there's those kinds of choices.

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: But then the point that you make,
which I really like is, is the choice

to learn from the choice that you made
or the thing that happened to you.

and what you choose to do with that
information, should you assimilate it?

and I think that's really interesting.

And that gets onto like.

Thinking about the last season
of the good place where it was

really all about you going through a
stage of all going through a, a, an

iteration of life and then ending and
kind of, yeah, what have you learned?

And then what has that done to your score?

And then if the score is not at
this particular number, then you

go back again or whatever it was,

Brendan: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark: uh, or yeah, or you, you,
you have some tests or something.

And if you fail the test,
then you have to go back.

and so yeah, there's, there's something
interesting there about what you choose

to, there's what you choose to do versus
what you choose to learn, I guess,

Brendan: Yeah.

And then, you know, the thing, everything
that came before impacts your decision

of whether you choose to learn it or not.

So in that regard, there's still a
little bit of non, non free will aspect

going into it.

Mark: of circumstance.

Brendan: Yeah.

but yeah, I just feel like, and also
like the, the, pressure, not pressures

necessarily, probably, but, People
around you pushing you to learn or to

grow or whatever or the circumstances
that are like Influencing you in a

certain way impacts your decision on
whether you have the ability to learn

have the desire to learn and grow and
change and So I feel like people think

no free will means you're static when
I don't, I don't see that at all.

It's just,

Mark: You know what?

The word that's coming up
for me now is responsibility,

Brendan: what's that?

Mark: because I think, That's maybe what
people conflate free will with being,

is free will means no responsibility.

And I think what's it, yeah,
what's interesting there is, Okay,

we don't technically like it's
not that we don't have a choice.

It's just we were always
going to make that choice.

I think that's possibly a

better character characterization because
you definitely mentally make a choice.

Brendan: correct.

Mark: but what we're talking about
now is saying, okay, well, you were

always going to make that choice.

The decision next is.

What responsibility do you take and what
ownership do you take over that choice?

And that's the thing about whether
you learn from it or whether you go,

well, it was the other person's fault.

They did a stupid thing.

There was nothing I could have done.

And it's like, well, if you take some
responsibility or ownership over it,

then you can affect a change the next
time you, you get a go around with that.

Brendan: the reason why I brought
that up again is I watched this

Johnny Harris video on YouTube.

Do you know Johnny Harris?

He's um, a YouTube documentarian.

He, uh, worked for Vox for a while
and then moved over to, uh, the New

York Times doing videos for them.

And now I think is just independent.

He makes pretty deep dive like
into a topic documentaries.

They're very approachable.

He talks a bit too much, but he, it,
yeah, it's, it, they're, they're easy to

watch and, and usually really interesting.

He does a lot of things on like the
borders between countries, but he's also,

he, he throws in like wellness stuff.

He, he, he did one on,
on not using shampoo.

He did one on, on saunas and, and,
and hot tubs and cold plunges.

And he recently did one on sleep.

And can't exactly remember why
I felt like the free will and

sleep thing were so intertwined.

But there was something about
it that made me feel like there

Mark: can.

Brendan: connection there between the
quality of your sleep, like what you do in

your day to day life, and how that affects
your sleep when you're unconscious and

there

being some sort of free will
connection Yeah, I mean, yeah,

also the other way around.

Mark: yeah, the choices that
you make like this morning.

So I wasn't feeling super great
about myself because, I did a load

of really good work yesterday.

I was really, really proud of myself,
really pleased and ended up just getting

a shit load of really delicious meat.

Just like I got a big meat delivery.

Brendan: Mmm.

meat, tasty meat fire.

Mark: Yes, I got up this morning and
was very tired, didn't sleep very

well, partly because of the meat
and eating it a little bit too late.

Brendan: Oh, yeah.

Mark: and so, you know, wasn't, yeah,
didn't, didn't sleep well, but got

up and I was like, no, I'm going to
go, I'm going to go do the gym thing.

and kind of mindlessly, I just
gobbled up all of the leftovers.

Brendan: Mmm, mm hmm.

Mark: and I knew it was, there was
something there a little bit later on when

I was actually at the gym sort of feeling
like, Oh, I shouldn't have did this.

sort of with that thing of like,
yeah, but like you kind of, you were

slightly zombified and not quite
fully awake and with full agency.

And so that's, yeah, I think there
is something there about the dist

I hate that phrase, I keep doing
that, like, there's something here

about, just say what the thing is.

it's, I find it an irritating
affectation, but it makes, yeah, it

makes me think about the, uh, yeah,
the choice you make the night before

impacts how much sleep you get,
which then impacts your choicefulness

Brendan: yes.

It actually, it actually does.

It's not just a theory in your head.

I have some science to share with you.

So this Johnny Harris video,
was, Revealing some new research

from the Paris Brain Institute.

And so when, when you make a
decision, when you make a choice

in your brain, there is a release
of a chemical called glutamate.

It is a neurotransmitter, so it
allows signals to go through your

neurons, which are just like little
pathways, pipelines and stuff.

glutamate, it's essential for the, for
the choices to get to their destinations.

but it also, it's like, the wrapper on
a package, like you open up the package

and then you have the thing that you
wanted, but then, Then you have this

box to deal with, and the plastic, and
everything, and that, you just toss it

outside your door, and it piles up and
piles up and piles up, and eventually

the street is full, the driveway is
clogged, and the street is full, and

there's just all this glutamate around,
and then it kind of gets in the way.

And so, the way to clear it
out is by sleeping, sleeping

well and sleeping deeply.

and so it's, it's kind of fascinating,
like this, the same thing that helps you,

which, oh man, the yin yang, I'm, I'm just
seeing yin yangs all over the place now.

The, the thing that's positive is also the
thing that's negative in the same, in the

same way.

Yeah.

so yeah, glutamate, it, it allows you
to make the decisions and also by the

end of the day, there's so much of
it, you can't make decisions anymore.

Decision fatigue is a real thing.

It's glutamate.

Mark: Yeah.

If you've run out of, so, so
basically then you need to just

eat a boatload of Chinese food,

Brendan: I, uh, so that's MSG.

What's the, I don't

know if you're,

Mark: monosodium glutamate.

Brendan: Nice.

Nice.

Mark: Boo.

Brendan: man.

Um, so, so there was a, there's, um, a
suggestion, there's like a couple of hacks

that you can do of like taking a siesta
midday to, purge out some of the glutamate

can make it easier in the afternoon
for you to be able to make choices.

There's another hack is like.

Limiting your decisions, especially
early in the, early in the morning,

like taking the Steve Jobs approach of
just having a uniform or a meal plan.

Uh,

Mark: listener.

I just pointed at my,

Brendan: hand on heart shirt.

Mark: my chest.

Brendan: or like meal planning and, and,
and bulk making your meals and, and not,

not choosing what you're, doing first
thing in the morning, when you get up,

like, like, try to just get outside
and into the sun and rest, like, allow

yourself time to wake up and, and not
necessarily make a bunch of decisions

first thing in the morning was the
suggestion of, this, research study.

And yeah, I just, I, yeah, between that
and the free will thing, I was just

like, like, yeah, okay, we learned this
new thing and we can then kind of hack.

our free will a bit, uh, to make
things, to make it easier to make

choices later in the day and earlier.

And there's also stuff about caffeine,
which I didn't quite like, like, it's

not, it's not uncommon advice to like
take a coffee nap where you quickly

drink a coffee and then lay down for

20 minutes.

Yeah.

or drinking coffee between not having
your first coffee of the day until.

between 9 and 11 a.

m.

Um, which is supposed to,
do something with Adenosine.

And, I don't know the, the, the, the,
the research on that and the, and the

logic behind it doesn't make a lot of
sense to me and to some people I follow.

And so that one's a
bit like kind of weird.

But, you know, a siesta, hard to do, but,
depending on, you know, an occupation

and everything, but, the winner for me.

I, man, that sounds,
that sounds wonderful.

I'll take a nap.

Mark: How

Brendan: yeah.

Mark: your week been?

Brendan: man, I've been so, I've
been so excited for our next segment,

Mark: Oh, well, that's

Brendan: so, so that's been,
that's been just, That's been

just a joy.

That's been, it's just been very occupying

Mark: Good.

Brendan: and, oh man, I just had, I
an emotional men's group yesterday.

a couple weeks prior in a different,
men's meeting, I had said something

that had triggered somebody and
they, they felt really dismissed

and, they were really upset.

Strongly thinking about leaving the
group and, I had no idea until he had

mentioned it last week, saying like,
you know, Hey, I've been feeling this

way, but he didn't give any details.

And then this week he, let us all know
like what, what was going on for him.

Um, It was, it was, it was
pretty emotional for all of us.

We were all kind of like tearing up.

I was super like shaky.

Cause I, I hate the idea
of having hurt somebody.

And, and it wasn't really he
understood that it wasn't me.

That wasn't what I'd said.

It wasn't, I didn't do
anything to harm him.

And it was just the thing that
I had said was triggering for

him because of his own trauma.

And then nobody kind of went
back to him during the discussion

and checked in with him about

And like, we didn't really know,
because he's kind of a quiet guy, and

we didn't really know that he wanted
that or needed that in the moment.

And the topic, we were talking
about, suicide and, taking

antidepressants to, prevent that.

And, the topic was brought up by another
gentleman, and we were kind of all

focusing on, you know, Him and not the
guy that was triggered because we didn't

know he was triggered and the other guy
brought it up And we all kind of went

around and we're telling our story of our
own challenges with with suicidality so

yeah, it was just kind of unfortunate.

It was nobody's fault really just It
was a bummer, in the, in the moment

yesterday when he was revealing it,
the, you know, his trigger point was

from something that I had said, which
was kind of, I guess, just like, not

dismissing, medication, but trying to.

I wanted to talk about other options,
like, yeah, that, that is one option,

but there are also other options.

Like we can, there's, there's pathways.

You can learn new things.

You can reroute neuro neurons and you
know, there are options and heath.

He's struggled throughout his life to
try those things and it hasn't worked

for him so he's on medication and feels
like he has to be and so he kind of felt

like maybe there was a bit of a judgment
there when there absolutely wasn't.

we all talked about it and it was,
uh, yeah, it was pretty emotional.

But at the same, in the same,
meeting, I got these two like

massive compliments I couldn't have.

Like, I didn't expect and I, I, I,
I was an inspiration to one guy who,

like my demeanor, my, my happiness, my,
my self, um, pleasure and confidence

was like a shining light to this guy.

And he was like, The first time he
met me, he's like, is this even real?

Like, what is, what is going on here?

And then like, as he got to
know me more, he's like, wow,

this, this is really genuine.

And I, like, I'm so inspired by this.

I want that so much.

And then another guy, who,
the, who was the guy who, um,

who was recently divorced.

And I, you know, gave
him the contrary advice

of, maybe being happy for his wife and
his, his, Um, he gave me a compliment

too and was really, uh, just super
happy I was there and, and pushing

people and then kind of like, you
know, pushing boundaries and stuff.

And we all kind of came to the
conclusion, like, we don't,

yeah, yeah, a trigger happened.

It's really great and, and, and
vulnerable and open for him to

have come and shared that with us.

And we're, we're all
really thankful for it.

And we all still want people to push
our buttons and like push back on

if we say something and it's not
quite, you know, maybe we have a

different thought or there's another
way to look at it or whatever.

we, we all still want it universally.

We all still wanted that.

So that was really great.

I was really happy about that because.

That's, that's what I do is I say,
that's what I, like, I always want

to be like, well, you know, sure,
that's one way to think about it.

Let's, you know, there could be
another way to think about it.

And, and people were turning to me
and asking me like questions about

how, how I would reframe things.

I gave them a story about how my,
uh, My favorite movie growing up, and

still maybe kind of to this day, sort
of, I don't know, it's hard to pick

a favorite movie, is The Cable Guy.

And there's this moment where,

Mark: hmm.

Brendan: Jim Carrey walks into
Matthew Broderick's apartment, and

there's no messages on the machine,
and he goes, Nobody loves you.

And I For a long time, whenever I
would look at my phone and there

was no text messages, there was no
phone call, missed calls or whatever,

I would look at it and I would say
either internally or externally, nobody

loves you, just in Jim Carrey's voice.

And I realized that that
was bringing me down.

Like, it wasn't that there was
no messages bringing me down.

It was me telling myself that,
that really brought me down.

And about eight months ago or a year
ago or so, I realized I was doing that.

And consciously made the choice, the
free will choice to, say, everybody

loves me instead of nobody loves me.

And after it was hard to do, I
would, I would say nobody loves me.

No, no, everybody loves me.

And I know not everybody loves me.

Like I'm not, but that's,
that's beside the point.

A lot of people love me
and everybody that matters

Mark: Mm

Brendan: to me, loves me.

And that's great.

That's great.

Thank you.

Mark: Also, if your heart is pure, there
is no harm in Traversing the world with

the precept that everybody loves you

because That's just a more open and
friendly way to be rather than to

constantly be skulking around the
world with your, with a, you know,

with a, with a sense of defensiveness

or.

Being inward facing or not giving
your true self or whatever it is, you

know, being snarky, being sarcastic,
being any of these things that are

ultimately defense mechanisms, because
you don't want to entertain the idea

that actually maybe you're fun to
be around and people enjoy that.

And when you find the people who don't.

Yeah.

buy into your bullshit, you
sort of go, okay, that's fine.

You know, but yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like,

yeah, like going through life with
the precept that everybody loves you.

I don't think that's, that's harmful.

I think that's a, that's a,
a nice, a nice way to live.

It's just like, I'm kind
of cool and people like me

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: should like me.

Brendan: Yeah.

And now I look at my phone and
no matter what's on the screen,

I'm, now it's just neutral.

I don't, I don't say either to
myself and I don't feel bad.

I don't feel good.

I just, I'm like, okay, there's the phone.

It's right in front of me.

and, and that feels really good.

That feels really good.

yeah, I'm not, I'm not like,
as, as wanting any more for.

people to have been reaching out to me.

And, uh, I, I had been at a, at
a point where I was like, man,

I wish people would just text me
more like to show me they love me.

Cause that's how I tell, and cause that's
how I show my love is I, I send, you

know, like, Oh, this, this, uh, this
video made me think of you, or the song

made me think, I think you'd really
like this song or, you know, whatever.

And I send it to somebody cause
that's, a path of love for me to

send and, and I want that in return.

And I wanted that so much that it was
bringing me down because I wasn't getting

it, that's not how everybody shows love.

We all have different love languages.

That was cool at the, at the men's group.

yeah, I also came up with a new
business idea that, uh, I'm, I

haven't shared with you before.

And.

I'm, I'm really not sure about it.

I, uh, there's just so much stigma.

And, I even, I guess I
even have it within myself.

But, uh, I think it's a really great idea.

in a past life, you probably
don't know this about me.

I have been quite the shoplifter.

Mark: Huh.

That doesn't me.

Brendan: Great

Yeah

Mark: I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't
know how, like, what, like, what you were

supposed to do with that information.

But, yeah.

In

Brendan: when I was when I was a child,
definitely I you know What is money?

Mark: Mm

Brendan: But then growing up like
still still just kept the habit of it

And then, uh, in my, in my previous
marriage, it was condoned and encouraged.

Mark: huh

Brendan: then, you know, just,
I, I became really good at it.

and so I've, I've, I've, I learned
a lot of things about how to.

how to plan, how to look around without
looking like you're looking around,

how to be aware of where people are and
where they're moving and their patterns.

And it just, it just kind
of became second nature.

so I developed this skill
that is counterculture.

Mark: Sure.

Brendan: And it came to mind,

Mark: Okay.

Brendan: like, how could I put
this to a profitable use that maybe

isn't taking away from others.

And I thought about creating a company
that would perform shoplifting audits.

And it would be like hiring a
secret shopper that doesn't shop.

Mark: Mm-Hmm?

Brendan: And

Mark: Shoplifter.

Yeah.

Brendan: exactly.

I found a, I found a pretty good.

com I don't know, I'm just,
I'm, I'm toying with the idea.

Yeah.

It's, it's not.

You know, I, I've been, okay.

So, I've been diversifying a bit lately.

I, I, like we just talked about, this
week I made a new website for my podcast

editing and I'm, I'm in the process of
regaining my electrical license so that

I can do, uh, electrician work again.

Mark: Nice.

Brendan: and also at the same time
this week, I've had more inquiries into

remodeling and consulting and stuff.

And it feels like the universe is a
bit like, all right, you're expanding.

Now we'll just.

We'll give,

and then that feels good.

And, and, and at the same time, I'm
having this idea of like another avenue.

It wouldn't have to be
necessarily full time.

Maybe it could be, you know, if
I get there, but like just an

interesting thing to also have.

Mark: It's a gig.

Brendan: it's a gig.

So yeah, thinking about it.

And the, you know, the, the
hardest part is kind of just

admitting to people who don't know,
like people have an idea of me.

Of, of like conscientious and like, okay,

a great example of this is
my therapist from a year ago.

I, I told her after, after maybe
like seven to 10 sessions, you

know, we, we, we got to know
each other pretty well already.

And I, I told her that in my youth, I
shoplifted and she was like, Oh, wow.

I.

Had, I didn't expect that of you.

Obviously she has some judgment
around shoplifting and it's not

an anti capitalist like I am.

And, and that, that made me like, it made
it really, I actually felt myself back

away from her and I, like, I couldn't,
I couldn't open up to her about things

that I felt like she would judge me about

anymore, which, so I couldn't,
you know, I stayed with her for

a little bit longer cause I still
had some things I needed to process

that I knew she could help me with.

But.

I was like, okay, well, this
is, this is game over here.

Mark: Yeah, one of the things
I've realized is yep there is

there is gradiation in quality of

Brendan: Oh

yeah.

Oh yeah.

Hmm.

Mark: a conversation with someone for
list envy a few weeks ago when I asked

them about I think I asked her what she
thought about BetterHelp, and, she said

what you tend to get, and this absolutely
jibed with my experience, or my judgment

of the experience, is you tend to get less
experienced therapists on that platform

because it doesn't pay that well for them,

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: because obviously
BetterHelp is going to take

their cut, and, uh, That tracked.

It's like, yep, that, that, that
makes sense with my experience.

So, yeah.

And, and having had a, you know,
someone before who I saw in person and

who I was able to tell pretty shaming
stuff to, and always be met with.

A way to feel okay about that
and not a sense of judgment.

yeah, it makes a big difference
man alive Yeah, but that feeling

of of yeah, you feeling like you've
been judged by your therapist.

It stings It's like isn't
that the like the one thing

like

Brendan: supposed to do.

Mark: number one that
you're not meant to do?

Brendan: Yeah.

Yeah.

And she did, she definitely didn't
do it in a way that was like, Oh

my God, dude, what are you doing?

It was like, you know, it's
like, Oh, I'm, I'm surprised.

I.

Didn't expect that from you.

That kind of thing.

And

it's like,

Mark: that kind of, that kind of language
is like, Ooh, don't know, like, especially

if you are sensitive to the fact that
someone might be sensitive to judgment.

no,

Brendan: Yeah.

I don't feel like I'm sensitive to
judgment, but I am, you know, I'm a human.

Yeah.

Mark: you know, you've made yourself
vulnerable, um, by sharing in something

in that you thought was a safe space.

And it's not that it's not a safe
space, but it's just like, Oh, a little

bit harder edged than I expected.

Brendan: Yeah.

For sure.

Mark: And, you know, I remember that from,
um, in a very different scenario, but

I remember that in the standup course,
just sort of noting like, ah, right.

Yes.

In this particular scenario, I
don't feel as safe as I might.

And that I don't, I don't, love that.

And that's just, you know, there
is a cliche around, I don't know.

Cause it's like I had this cliche or
not cliche, but, um, presupposition,

like when I did the improv
course that it might be a bit.

Less say, and like the guy who ran
it is a bit of a, he was a bit of

a, he was a, yeah, it was a bit
of a guy, but he ran a very safe.

Room, a very safe space.

Um, some of his views as they came out
later, like, yeah, I don't love that.

Some of the things you support.

I don't love that.

But actually when he came to
running a room of strangers of,

you know, improvisers who are about
to make themselves look silly,

deliberately in front of people,
like he did that quite well.

and I, I went to a session
when I was at my hippie thing.

and I saw the extreme end
of what that looks like.

Uh, and it was really interesting,
like the extreme end of, I'm going to

look after you and you're not going
to be made to feel foolish, even if,

you know, I'm asking you to be silly.

Like,

it's really interesting.

and then when you feel what
that's like when, yeah, you're

not quite held in that way.

It's just, yeah, it's just less,
just makes you want to go back less.

Brendan: Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Mark: Yeah.

Brendan: So do you want to, uh, Do you
want to, stop putting off what everybody

is here for and, uh, and get to the

real topic?

Mark: Let's rip off the,

Brendan: shaved your beard!

Mark: yep, I did.

yeah.

Tuesday, I think I, I lopped it all off.

Brendan: Wow.

How long have you been growing it?

Mark: this time since 2021, I think,

Brendan: Wow.

Mark: yeah, I think, I think it
was 2021 when I, when I last got

red and when I last saw my chins,

here's this guy.

Brendan: uh, anything in
particular prompted, or?

Mark: Yeah, it's kind of,
um, maintenance because like

in order for it to look.

As good as I, as good as it can do, if
I'm honest, cause it can look all right.

the speed at which my beard grows
is it's quite fast and it can, tends

to grow outwards to the side, which
is not a good look for me at all.

and you know, it's, it's really
hard to keep it sort of trim.

and I don't know that I trust
myself to do the grooming.

Maybe, maybe I can get, I've
got a good set of, of clippers.

I've got, which is what I used to,
to, you know, lop all of it off now.

Well, I took a bunch of
kitchen scissors to it first.

Brendan: Mm hmm.

Mark: and then, you know, and then,
then the thing, And maybe I could

get a bit of sculpting knowledge.

I don't know, but it's like, it's, it's
sometimes it's just, it's just, yeah, no.

yeah, so I, it was, it was one of
those, I was just like, yeah, from a

maintenance issue, I probably look better.

with it off, even with the chins than
I do when three out of four weeks it's

just like poof out to the side and I look

Brendan: Uh,

Mark: yeah.

Brendan: I've I've
never noticed that, but,

Mark: Well, thank you.

And also, you know, there is increasing
an amount of salt in the salt and

pepper beard, which And you know a
fleck of that a a streak of that it's

fine but actually like it does make
me look a lot younger when I take

Take off the uh, take off the beard.

So yeah.

Brendan: I sent you the, the, the salt
parody of the James Hoffman video.

There's salt, salt, salt,
salt, salt, and salt.

Yeah, I love that video.

Okay, dude.

It's time.

We gotta, We gotta, do, we
gotta do the song words.

I'm so excited

Mark: it.

All right,

Brendan: I've been, so excited.

Mark: not song was it's it's it's legally

Brendan: It's song.

Mark: It's a melody battle

Brendan: Melody Battle.

It is time for Melody Battle.

Tm,

Tm, Tm.

Mark: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Brendan: Toontumult?

Is that what you said?

Mark: I did

Brendan: Wonderful.

Toontumult.

Mark: tune tumult.

Have you got any preamble for your song?

So last week, uh listener we uh decided
that the The theme for our first

inaugural tune tumult tumult tumult
was Gay the words game changer we,

we had a memory disagreement in the,
we remember, I remembered it wrong.

Brendan remembered it right, but we both
disobeyed the rule, uh, about duration.

So, um, apart

Brendan: Yeah, yeah, you didn't remember.

I, I willingly defied the

Mark: willingly, yeah, defied the rule.

Brendan: Yeah, but we're, yeah, our plan,
our plan is 90 seconds to 2 minutes ish.

I think, I think,

that's great.

Mark: I think is good.

Brendan: Yeah, which, which,
which, like, totally fits.

That's how I write songs anyway.

I love, to write a short and, and to
the point, like that was what lack of

content was all about is like, it's
just, we don't have long songs here.

It's just, it's just, we're just short

songs

getting

good out.

Yeah.

one, one thing I really love
about the song that I wrote is

a bunch of like inside jokes.

just a bunch of little, uh, little
lines that, mostly from that episode.

but there's also some, some bigger
reoccurring themes in there.

And, I don't know, I just, I, I,
I love how catchy the song is,

and I haven't been able to stop.

Singing it to myself and, and
Mark and I have been singing

it to each other and stuff.

So, yeah, I present to you.

Game changer.

Songs: I've been playing by
the rules, lost in the maze.

Chasing shadows in a
world that's just a phase.

But now I'm breaking free,
leaving all of the doubt.

Ready to ignite the
spark that's burning out.

I see the colors fade, but I'm
not afraid of stepping through the

portal where my dreams are made.

With every heartbeat,
I'm rewriting my fate.

It's time to rise up,
I won't h h h hesitate.

I'm a game changer, on an epic quest.

Not making a high score,
just giving my best.

Walking through the fire, I'm ready
to spark this convergence, oh lord.

I'll light up the dark!

Every quest in turn, I'm stronger inside.

From the ashes I'll
burn, I'm ready to ride.

Through the trials and the
tears, I'll embrace the fight.

In this game of life,
I'm chasing the light.

I'm a game changer, on an epic quest.

Not making the high score,
just giving my best.

Walking through the
fire, I'm ready to start.

This convergent cellar,
a line of the dark.

Mark: damn son, you've got some skills

Brendan: Thank you mate.

Mark: that is uh, wow I love
how I love your soaring vocals.

I love the positivity.

I love the Yeah, i'm not
making the high school.

I'm just doing my best.

I love the full throatedness of the
singing and I love the I love how

you've mixed that in at the end.

Yeah, like that's that's some shit.

I uh, I can't do um, that's really cool.

That is that is fun That is a fun song

Brendan: Yeah, I did use
AI to help me out a little

Mark: Really?

Brendan: did.

I did.

I get I,

Mark: I didn't expect that of you.

Brendan: I know.

I

Mark: now go tell me about that.

Brendan: so I, I, I wrote a bunch
of the, the inside joke lines that

I wanted to have incorporated.

And I was like, Hey, chat GBT, can you
just like fill this out a little bit?

Yeah.

And so all the lines that are kind of just
like, not necessarily about the, the show

Mark: Yes.

Brendan: kind of just like
fluff lines to get you

Mark: Yeah.

They're the mashed potatoes.

Yeah,

Brendan: yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the
lines, like, that I'm really proud, I

mean, obviously Game Changer, and that,
and that having the, the topic, the, the,

the style kind of be like chiptuney and

Mark: Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Brendan: of, all of the lyrics
kind of being gamified, that was,

that was kind of my tweaking and
yeah, not making the high score.

I felt like that was, that was, cause
that was something that we had talked

about on the previous episode of like,
I don't feel like I'm achieving a high

score this round, this, this ego life.

And so that was kind of in my head.

walking through the fire was the
documentary that we were talking

about in the previous episode.

obviously I threw convergence in there
cause I thought that would be fun.

Lighting up the dark to me was like
enlightening somebody who's like

keeping themselves in the dark.

that was kind of my
thought about around that.

and then I had Through the trials and
the tears was kind of an allusion to, the

arbitration stuff that we went through
and, yeah, there was a bunch of the, it

was just, man, it was just so fun when
it, it all just came together so quick.

I finished it on day two,

Mark: Yeah.

I was going to say like you,
cause you'd started it on Friday.

Brendan: I started on a

Mark: and then, wow.

Amazing.

Brendan: And I think I tweaked it.

the next couple of days after that, but
it was, it was like 99 percent done and

I was just adding a little extra things.

so I've been, I've been kind of working
on some music stuff, for the past,

A couple months I've had my head in
the game of wanting to make music

stuff since I did Mushrooms and, and
wrote that poetry and was like, Oh, I

really want to do something with this.

And I'm working on that and working
on that with, with Cameron and

he's going to be helping me kind
of, so he's an opera singer.

He knows a lot about music
theory and, and stuff.

And like, we're going to kind of
combine our skills to make something

that's really, that's Weird, hopefully.

Uh, I don't know.

We'll see.

I'm so glad you liked it.

I've been, I've been so
dying to play this for you.

So, I'm, and I'm, I'm super excited
to hear what, uh, what you've come

up with and what's, what's going on.

So tell me about it.

What's the, what's the preamble?

What's, what you got, what you got

Mark: I might just hit play.

and then, and then you can,
we can, we can go from there.

there is, less significance.

this, all happened today.

Brendan: Wonderful.

Mark: the, idea came to me
in the shower at the gym.

Of what it was going to be.

so here it is.

It's called Game Changer

Brendan: Mmm.

Mmm.

Songs: I'm sick of pretending to be
a friendly, affable, nice guy, very

mean, and it's time you all knew it.

I'm going to say some things that
I've wanted to say for a long time.

Oh boy, these aren't my real thoughts.

This is totally off the dome.

If you wanna start a revolution, throw
a six and climb the ladder, Add a tad

of piss and adder, Matter points will
drop the hammer if you climb before

the adoration, Patient is the potion
that'll heal a broken nation, Sticks

and stones will break bones while I
drop bombs, Rhymes like air drones

delivering love from me to you, Now
can I get a witness worthy of a cringe?

Well, no doubt we're still sick.

If you wanna make a ruckus, then a plan
can be arranged, But better call me

Samuraish because the game done changed.

Hey, you've only just begun to
pull the thread on this sweater!

You would think in a game with only
two possible correct choices, that

one would stumble into the right
answer every so often, wouldn't you?

In fact, the probability of
never guessing right in the full

game is a statistical wonder!

And yet, here we are!

Oh, you made a podcast?

Well, I've quit about a
dozen, doesn't matter why.

There ain't no way to stop this brain from
buzzing, wasn't it yesterday I came up?

So don't call me your discussant,
cause I'll federate your mother!

And I'll syndicate your cousin.

Run him up on the open
where my rhymes get slicker.

Can I concatenate all of the characters?

Gettin your calories countin quicker.

I make it to Mac and my buttons
up like the original Joysticker.

Playin the game?

I've been playin the game and
my monitor don't even flicker.

If you wanna take the king, you
better drag him off the stage.

But if you mischeck, mate, my
dude, the game done changed.

Brendan: Holy shit, dude!

Oh,

Mark: I was supposed to have done
some work today and I didn't and I did

Brendan: you did, you did better.

Holy shit, dude.

Wow.

Oh my god, the, the, the, the, the
Brennan and, and Rice quotes, the,

the fucking, the rapping, dude.

Like,

that's some skills.

I had, I had no idea you had that in you.

Holy

shit.

Did you do the whistling?

Mark: no, no, no, no.

that I was, I was trying to find
something suitably Dixieland vintage.

So that is

Brendan: Mm hmm.

Mark: not a sample, but
yeah, it's royalty free

Brendan: incredible, dude.

Holy shit.

I'm blown away.

I love it.

Mark: Yeah, it was fun
writing those lyrics.

Brendan: damn.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Oh my, wow.

I'm gonna be, that's gonna be on a repeat.

Holy shit.

You gotta, you gotta send me that.

Are we, we gotta, we, uh, are
we gonna like post these to a

YouTube channel or something?

Mark: Something, um, yeah.

So, I,

So, Hi, I started a blog today.

Brendan: Hello, Mark
Steadman of the new, the new

Mark: of the new blog, because I wanted
a place to put, like, stuff like this,

and, just, like, talk about the weird
and the wonderful and all the, the stuff

that I'm into and, like, care about.

last week,

Brendan: Holy shit, I am fucking,
I cannot, that's incredible.

I thought I had such, I had
a, I thought I had the winner,

Mark: It's not a competition.

This is not a competition.

Brendan: It's a tumult.

Mark: it's a tumult.

Brendan: Actually, I don't
even know what a tumult

Mark: No, I think, I think
we're using the word wrong.

but yeah.

Brendan: loud, confused noise, especially
one caused by a large mass of people.

Mark: Oh, there you go.

Yeah, that that

Brendan: And that actually works.

Mark: It's pretty good.

Um, it's definitely a confused noise

Brendan: Toon tumult.

Mark: Yes, so

Brendan: See you blog.

Mark: a few weeks ago

Brendan: Uh huh.

Mark: talked about A website
called web3 is going just great

Brendan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark: written by molly white.

who I hope it is not Problematic to say
Definitely going to be my future wife.

Um, the, I'm sure there are lots of
people who would, who would say the same.

She's

just wonderful.

Um, she's just, she's just my kind of
person in, in, in, and what I mean by that

is she gave this talk at XOXO, last week.

About the open web.

and I, I make the joke about
her being, my, my future wife.

I think she's probably
about 10 to 15 years.

No, not that many years, my junior,
but I think, I think she might be late

twenties, early thirties, which is all
the more interesting considering she

is a proponent of the web as people
like me, and perhaps you remember it.

Brendan: Right.

Mark: which is full of independent stuff,
full of weird stuff, full of stuff that

we own ourselves, rather than, you know,
on platforms that we've given over.

So, you know, fuck Medium, fuck Substack
with its support of Nazis, fuck, you

know, all, all of these different systems.

you know, Facebook and
X and all that bullshit.

Not that it's all bad, but like
just that sense of recognizing a

web that we felt like we owned.

And then we felt that that was ours.

Brendan: Mm

Mark: And, you know, she talked about
building websites in, in, you know,

like hand coding stuff in Neo pets.

And then in my space and like, just the
idea of making stuff that's weird and it's

yours and it's all that kind of stuff.

And I was, I just watched the
talk and I thought this brilliant.

This is just like, yes.

And my ax just like I'm
thoroughly behind this.

and it's just, there's been a few
things that have been slotting

into place in terms of wanting to.

Have a place to talk about that
stuff, have a place to share,

share the stuff that I think is
interesting and, Pres like, yeah,

thinking about preserving the web.

Like, that's, you know, that's
why there's a little allusion to

it in the, in the, in the track.

Like, when I'm upon the open web,
my rhymes get slicker because

like, I, you know, I kind of, you
know, make a little nod to that.

and so, yeah, I set up a little,
blog, um, in my writing, hour

that I facilitate on a Friday.

I just use that to get it set up on
ghost and write, write a quick post.

and so, you know, stuff like this,
I've also, I've also posted an

episode of Convergence to it because
like, I don't really talk about

Convergence and I'm so happy with it.

It's such a good show.

and so, you know, posting a little
blog post for each episode as, as

it comes out and yes, with your, I
don't know, uh, permission is the

right word, but with your blessing,

Brendan: Blessed.

Mark: I think I would like to put the
songs on maybe, and I was thinking

about this, so I'm toying with, and
I don't expect anyone to sign up for

it, but I just thought I'll make the
infrastructure there, and then I can

think about it at a later point, of like,
you know, people want to throw in some

money to just say we like what you do.

Brendan: hmm.

Mark: Then I was like, for those
people, maybe they get it super early.

There's the song, maybe
they get it, I don't know.

But yeah, so, but yeah, I definitely
liked the idea of, of, of putting

the song up there, we can, like
you said, put it up on YouTube.

We can, hey, in fact, this could be fun.

If we use something like Amuse.

Brendan: Mm hmm.

Oh, I'd definitely, I'd love to do that.

You'd have to, I don't know if
you don't need to get rights

for those samples or not,

Mark: Uh, the samples I'm okay
with, because they're royalty free.

I think apples you're all ready,
You're all always good for.

The Brennan and thingy would
have to, yeah, they'd have to go.

Brendan: Oh, that's what I meant.

Yeah, yeah,

Yeah,

Mark: yes.

yeah,

yeah, they'd have to go.

Unless I, I could revoice them.

Brendan: yeah.

yeah.

You

yeah.

You

Mark: yeah, yeah, Uh, but there's
some, there's some options there.

Cause I definitely do like the idea.

Like if we're going to keep doing
this, they, you know, they do

need to be collected and preserved

and, and made whole into their own little
thing, um, so that, yeah, people can.

I went back to, so there used to
be a show called flat 29's big

book of everything, which is still.

Brendan: Okay.

Mark: Uh, available online.

And it was these three
young lads from the UK.

I think they were like uni, university
friends, and then they kind of stayed

in touch and they made this, they
used to do little bits of internet

japery, um, and they had this show.

I only found out about it because I used
to very briefly run a podcast review site.

I was possibly one of the
earlier ones doing it.

I

Brendan: did too, but that
was not one of the early ones.

Mark: no, well, yeah, yeah.

this was 2009.

and I gave someone an excoriating review.

Brendan: Mm.

Uhhuh

Mark: In a very internet,
keyboard warrior kind of way.

It was a shitty review.

but it was also kind of a shitty
podcast, uh, made by people

who had access to do better.

and they read it.

Um, and I think like one of them was
a comedian, the other one was not.

And I think the comedian kind of
quite sanguine and, you know, fine.

But the other guy, I think
he was like hurt by it.

Like he, he didn't see,
he was kind of, yeah.

Like, cause he kept picking, like
I'd misspelled the word and he kept

like picking it apart and stuff.

And like, he really, yeah,
he really didn't like it.

I completely lost my bottle, sorry, that's
a British phrase, I completely, like,

lost my nerve, and I even changed my
internet name for a long time, like, I, I

really, I got no blowback, I mean,
I just, I think I just felt, I

felt bad, and I felt like that had,
oh, that had an impact, like, that

Brendan: Yep, yep, yep,

yep.

And I didn't like how it felt.

Mark: And I didn't like how it felt.

Brendan: Uhhuh.

Mark: yes, yes, it is.

that site, while it was up, a
guy from flat 29 wrote to me

and said, we have this podcast.

And I started listening to it.

I don't really, I enjoyed it.

you know, there are bits that are
like a bit naive and a bit like, you

know, whatever, but there was some
good stuff in there and they used

to make a song, I think every week,
three, I can't remember if it was.

It might have been not each one
of them made a song each week.

I think it might have cycled.

Whichever way I know one of one of
the three of them was not necessarily

The, the musician of the group, but
the other two kind of were, and there

was one that I think back to a lot
because it was an absolute banger.

unfortunately they used, so when they
put it on the podcast, they used music

that they did not have the royalty

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: great melody.

and it's so, it was so catchy.

And it was just like this a little
bit like the, you know, the, the

sort of not Dixieland, but like,
it was a kind of a, you know,

1920s kind of jazzy kind of thing.

it, they, they, they wrote their
own lyrics and it was like Marjorie.

So, so the, the, the premise was, it
was a love song for an octogenarian.

And so it's like Marjorie, I get a
funny feeling when you look at me,

baby, I can see what's going on.

I just want to find the time
to make your mind Marjorie.

It's, it was just such a little bop.

And then there's a rap and
all that kind of stuff.

So it was definitely kind of
challenge channeling a little bit.

what they ended up doing is
they released a little album on

iTunes as it was back in the day.

and they had to, that one, they had to
swap out the melody and it just wasn't

quite as memorable, but yeah, like,
you know, that's a, that's something

we can, we can do and have fun with.

I mean, let's see how we
are in two weeks time.

but

yeah,

Brendan: if we can keep up this.

Uh, but, but like fucking
out of the gate, dude.

Like this is some quality shit.

Oh my god,

Mark: I had fun.

I kept, cause I was, I was doing some
client work today and I kept like having

little lyric ideas in my head and I
had to pause what I was doing and go

and write them down and try and find,
you know, all these little, you know,

cause there's little internal rhymes
and all that kind of stuff in there.

I've

never written anything quite so fast.

Brendan: Yeah.

Mark: yeah, so that was a
challenge and I didn't think

I'd be able to do it at speed.

But most part no way it was all at speed
like I had to take a couple of takes

Because breathing is difficult.

But

Brendan: Wow, dude.

I am so impressed.

I I I fucking love it.

Holy shit.

I'm a bit speechless.

I'm just blown away.

I

Mark: no, no,

Brendan: really thought I
was going to win this thing.

Not that it's a competition.

It's not

a

competition.

I know.

Mark: No, this is competition.

Brendan: I was like, Oh
shit, I'm going first.

Sorry, man.

But, uh,

Mark: I love it.

I love it.

Brendan: But no, I've, I've
been, I've been humbled.

Mark: I was, no, well, to be honest, I
was expecting, This is one of, one of

the great, the great worries is like,
you do something that's really earnest

and, and, which you did, it was earnest,

but like, that's like
deeply emotionally resonant.

And then I come along
with my silly rap song.

Like that was very much a risk.

Brendan: No, it's pretty I, I just fucking
love how we came at it from different

Mark: Completely different angles.

Brendan: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I super, I super loved your,
your Game Changer quotes and, and

the Brennan rants and Oh my god.

I, I, uh I, I saw somebody did a
little like, uh, of one of those rants.

Somebody did an animated
version of it on YouTube.

And I, I, I think about that occasionally
because it's just so, man, his

rants, uh, that, that dude is just,

yeah.

Like you said, it's a phenom.

It's just incredible.

Mark: Yeah.

Get in the comments.

there you go.

Get in the comments.

I'm hungry now.

Brendan: Oh yeah, oh wow, um, I, uh,
correct me if I'm wrong, as always,

print.

But what I, what I really mean is, um,

Oh, I lost it.

Uh,