When “safe spaces” become unsafe

On Episode 5 of Convergence, trigger warning, we discuss a pretty gnarly car accident, although

thankfully everyone walked away from it. And met a trigger warning, we talk quite a bit about trigger warnings.

Oh, and I quit working on Bramble. Okay, let's go.

I've been listening to more of this book, thank you for being late, and I don't actually really know why I'm reading it, because it's just really depressing.

I'm like more than halfway through it. It's not, it hasn't provided the the optimists part of it subtitle yet.

Yes, so you were looking for that like, how is this not going to suck and you haven't found it?

Yeah, it's just like a lot about climate change and how technology is causing it and not doing its job to prevent it and

in a bunch of other, like way more stuff than that. And anyways, a big part of it is just reinforcing this idea that I already

have, which is that I want the world and, I mean, obviously individual countries, but really the world

to have a universal basic income. And just we have enough resources, we have the systems in place.

We can just make it happen. We can all just decide that that's the right thing to do because it is.

That everybody just has enough. And then, but then also, you know, then that cascades into more people living

and living longer lives and healthier and then an overpopulation is also a big part of this book and

this problem that we're going to have nine billion people by 2050, which is less than 20 years away.

And like, then, you know, if people stop dying and this is going to keep making more people. And

so yeah, so actually I strike that. I don't know what the solution is. Everything is spot.

I think, yeah, I think about the the whole universal basic income thing and about,

I guess what we might call welfare in general. And I don't think there's a money problem. It's an

ideological problem and it's a judgment problem. I think there is so much, I mean, over here it's

this class, that is an issue. And I think maybe it is in the States, well, I don't know the States is

as class obsessed as we are. Yeah, we just label it differently. But yeah, yeah. And I think, you know,

this, so this came up this week in that the Chancellor, the person with the money,

with the purse strings is enacting legislation that says, if you have been out of work due to

your disability and you've been claiming benefits as a result of that, then you, if you don't engage

with basically they're going to try and force you back into work. And if you don't engage with it,

yeah, then you'll lose your benefits, which is a fundamental and deliberate misunderstanding of what

those benefits are. They're not benefits to enable you to, they're not benefits tied to your productivity.

And that's the problem that ideologically they want to, and by they, I mean, you know,

our current government, which happens to be the conservative party, they want to tie your worth as an

individual or your ability to live as an individual to your ability to produce to the GDP. And if you can't

produce, if you can't add to the GDP, then you are a blight, you are a problem, and we can't, we don't

want to support you. And that is an ideal logical issue that you can't make by saying, you know,

a universal income because they don't want to solve that problem. Because there are people who believe

that disabled people fundamentally are kind of just, you know, getting away. And they're just

a drag basically. And we want to crack on and do what we want to do. And I don't think it's necessarily

like, on a personal level, people believe that, but I think on a systemic level when you get enough

people who have a shared ideology, I think that's the ideology that comes out of the machine. I don't

think people are that cruel, but they create cruel systems. Yeah, on an individual basis, a person is like,

oh, no, I want the person to be just fine. But on a systemic basis, people are like, yeah. So I was playing,

yeah, a few months ago I was playing the, the bedtime game of what would you do if you won like a

million pounds? And so I'm going to ask to you what you were going to do with the money. And you

wanted to have a nice charitable answer. And yes, you know, we can talk about cancer research and

all these various things. But the where I started to go with it is how interesting would it be?

And it's lofty and it is maybe a bit honest and maybe a bit poof-faced or whatever, but I really

engaged with the idea of what if we could write some kind of simple book with easily, easily,

easily translatable concepts that basically taught worldwide empathy from an early age.

And you do something about working without judgment, working with curiosity with people and making it,

you know, doing the work to make it so compelling at a, like a neurological level, you know,

using what we know about addiction, using what we know about how to make addictive things,

how can we make a book that is so page turning and so fun and interesting and engaging and, you know,

perhaps it's brightly colored and, you know, and maybe there's different versions that appeal to different

nations and the way they think that ultimately gets us to this thing of just like over a generation,

can we have this fundamental understanding, this global understanding of just our fellow human

and a basic compassion for how can we teach compassion for people we don't know?

Yeah, I don't know. That's incredible. Let's have one of our listeners give us a million dollars

and on that right away, I am done. So, well, you have had something of a week, my friend.

Yeah, yeah, it was on Monday, had this amazing time went to the symphony.

Margaret and I went to the symphony, my father-in-law is a double basis in the organ symphony

and not just the basis, but a double basis. Yeah, double basis.

And I tried to write a word out of the funny. He's so good at the beefy's double.

I only mentioned it because I didn't, I everybody kept referring it to him playing the bass.

Yeah, and then at some point it said the double bass and I was like, "Oh, what's a double bass?"

And I'm like, "Oh, that's just the bass. They just call it a bass." And I'm like, "What is?"

So there's an bass, a electric guitar. There's a bass acoustic guitar. There's a double bass.

And I know that as an upright bass. And like, but they all call them bass.

All of them are called bass. And then bass is called bass. And then the fish, a bass, is spelled bass.

And I just get so confused. So anyways, I used to know an Andy Bass. He was a bass, not a bass.

Oh, no. But this is not a wave, no, and you can't know a wave, no. How is he supposed to know?

But then afterwards we, and then Margaret's mom was also there with us when we were all watching the symphony.

It was beautiful as the Shakespeare mid-Summer Night's Dream.

My Nicholson, Nicholson, something like that. I'm embarrassing myself. I know, but it was beautiful.

It was really great. And then afterwards we went for drinks with Margaret's parents.

And yeah, it just had a great time. Oh, and then also when we drove home, we got T-Bounded

at an intersection of a few blocks from our house. Also that. Car, a pickup truck was fleeing police

in a residential area at around 50 miles an hour or more. And sped through a red light that we were

cruising through on the green and hit the front passenger side. We spun around. We spun so much

that our tail ended up hitting their car. It hit us and then flipped or like fish tailed and hit them.

Airbags deployed everywhere. More airbags than we knew existed. And now, now is how

the safety features of Yoko? Yeah, yeah. This little knits of B-sheenarage is tiny little thing.

Saved our lives. It was beautiful. There is smoke everywhere. I never actually saw the other vehicle.

I just heard from a witness that it was a pickup truck. But it came so fast and it was so dark.

At night, all I saw was the trail of the headlights coming towards the intersection. I'm like,

oh shit, they're not slowing down. And like slammed on my brakes. Because typically when you're driving

through, people will come up fast to an intersection and they're slow down right at the sidewalk.

Or at the crosswalk. And so just hit me like, oh shit, they're not slowing down. And so I like

got a couple inches or a couple feet out of braking thankfully because they hit just in front of the

passenger side door. I feel like if I hadn't slowed down a little bit, like it could have

been a lot worse, especially in market. But for both of us. And yeah, and then the two seconds after

the car stops shaking and we're just sitting there for a second. We hear the truck

peel out and drive down the road and get away because they were still trying to flee police.

And we happened to be at the border of the county line city line border. And so the other city,

happy valley that's chasing these police. They have to stop because they're not allowed to pursue

in Portland. And so the guy gets away. Which is just like, okay, well if you're going to chase them

up to the border, like you're just trying to chase them out of your town. Like, is that

this what we're at right now? Because like if you weren't in a high speed pursuit, then we wouldn't have

gotten hit. But anyways, that's just me continually mad at the police. And then so we

so we check in with each other. We both like ask each other like five times. Are you okay? Are you?

I'm okay. Are you okay? And then we're fine. No bones are protruding from our skin. We're rattled

but we're alive. And so Margaret bolts out of the car and gets to the gypsies to the side of

us because she sees so many movies with exploding cars. But she doesn't know if something's going

to happen. I just think that's so adorable. It's just perfect. It's just perfect. And I'm thinking

like after after we talk about it, I was thinking about what we have like an empty tank of gas anyway.

Like even if that was possible, which probably isn't, it would be just like poof.

And this car just runs on fumes. It was a delightfully light three-cylinder engine car. And so

and that's why it spun so much. And actually I think because you're like even though it was tiny

and had no bulk, it had no real protection, like armor. It was so light that we spun and like I

feel like we didn't slam our heads into the airbags or anything. We just kind of like twisted

and like all of our momentum kind of got shifted around and we didn't really get banged up too much.

Margaret asked like if we were driving my pickup truck instead of what how that would have been different.

And I'm like well, we probably would have stopped sooner because my brakes are better in my truck.

But we would have then hit the side of the other truck more and would have probably slammed

forward and not really twisted because my tires probably grip the ground more and I have more weight

in my truck. And so like I don't know, I think maybe we fared better in this tiny car.

I'm not really sure. Anyways, Margaret walked away with a pretty sore shoulder probably a

rotator cuffed spring and a bunch of breezes on her hand and where the seat belt kind of

held her in place. And for me I had a a spring ACL which I'm still limping around on

and general my algebra throughout my body aches and pains and it's kind of triggered a

fiber my algebra flare like I have been getting down to just like a 1 out of 10 pain every day.

And now it's up at like a 5 or 6 just because it's just my body is trying to

to work really hard at repairing this part of my body that's hurt and all those organs,

all those glands that I use to produce chemicals and stuff in my body are just still kind of tired.

They're like okay, well when you're fine, when you're when you're doing your self care routine every

day for three hours and you relax and everything, you can feel fine. That's great. But when you have

a big sudden injury, we're going to make your herd again. I'll take you to yourself to

any, or what would you call urgent care? Yeah, yeah we both went to urgent carry. I got they just wrapped me up

in some asparagus and told us to take out your profit. But yeah we got checked out.

That's that's the American medical system for you. I think I'd be profanist probably the most

prescribed drug. It's the one that needs the way it's the one to drug. I'm a, I swear why

be profaned? Absolutely. I just deal with the pain. I'd rather the things I've learned about how

I'd be profaned in Adville and those kind of things destroy your gut microbiome. I'm just like,

I think I'm going to let my body just kind of handle this. Well I had a conversation with because

there was a big scare or it was a story a few years ago about I'd be profaned and what it

could do to the heart and stuff. I went and saw my doctor about it. I've got a mystery injury.

One day I woke up and I was in quite a lot of pain and I couldn't really move my left shoulder

past a certain point and it also stuff and I still now get a bad back in about shoulder when

it's really cold and stuff. I just got this weird sort of twin-gy injury. I went to my GP about it.

I said, just take I'd be profaned and this line. It was really good. It was like, you did the right

thing, this line, the other don't what it could have been. But take I'd be profaned and rest up.

I'd said to him, I'd heard this thing about ibuprofen and there's the heart condition of my family,

I'm overweight and stuff and he was like, basically what a lot of this stuff is. It's the same

we'd like to ask you a time, ask a time and a few of these other things. You have to take them in such

big quantities before you actually get to the effects that people are talking about. So yes,

you can get these issues but you have to be popping more than the recommended dose per day and it usually

ends up being quite a lot more than recommended dose per day in order to see those kind of symptoms.

Yeah, because they noticed those trends in rats and stuff when they give them a human size dose for

rat-sized body and stuff. Post all of that. What was the, and I mean mentally, not physically,

like what was the next day? Honestly, not so bad. It was mostly like wow, and so thankful to be alive.

What a time to have this reminder of how fragile life is while we're trying to manifest our dream life

and it's the day before Thanksgiving and we're thinking about family and brolling our family and

being around family. It was a lot of, you know, like hot baths lifting my leg and thinking about how

grateful I am. That was really um, that was really the most of it. Margaret went right back to work the

next day, which was just she didn't want to. So it happened to us at like 11, 20, 11, 30,

PM, and um, how did you sleep? Actually, pretty bad. So I didn't, I didn't know exactly how to handle

my leg yet. So I couldn't find a comfortable position. I typically actually lift a sleep with my legs

lifted up because I've had a, I've had two conditions. I have, I have pots, which means I have

very poor circulation, especially my limbs. And so I have giant bulging, varicose veins in my legs because

the blood just kind of pools down in my legs. And so I lift my legs up at night to help them

drain back into my body. And then also I fell off a ladder six years ago and cracked a whole bunch

of bones in my feet. And so now it hurts to let my heel rest down on a bed or anything like that.

So I just, I generally lift my legs. And so that helped. But I still couldn't quite find a good position

for my leg. It was just really painful. No matter how I, like if I held it in a position, it was fine.

But as soon as I like relaxed, then it would hurt. And so it was kind of hard to fall asleep because

then I would wake up as I'm relaxing as kind of a bed back and forth. But the next couple of days

as I kind of figured out how the ACL hurts and how what position it likes and doesn't like to be

in a little bit better. So I've been having better sleep. But that first night was pretty rough.

So then day two, Tuesday, I guess, Margaret goes back to work, you saw him. Oh yeah, yes,

he was like, it was super late at night and she was like, I don't want to call them and tell them

I can't make it because it's like, you know, I have to go babysit them in like nine hours.

Because she's a nanny and like I'm just like, they'll understand we just had a massive

car accident. Like it's a nanny agency. They have other people. It'll be fine. But she was like,

no, I have a duty. She's she's just an amazing chupor. And she handled it pretty well. It seems that

from what I know of Margaret that that feels like that checked out. Yeah, she is an amazing capacity

to compartmentalize. But like not in a super unhealthy way of like not dealing with traumas, although

technically I guess this is just not dealing with a trauma, but maybe delay delay delay

delay delay with the trauma. Yeah, she has like a four-neck baby again. She listens. I love you.

But yeah, so I, I did not go back to where I cannot, I cannot work. Maybe, maybe by Monday,

we'll see. I don't know. And the car, totaled, totaled immediately. Yeah, just the, our insurance agency

has an app that we use to file the claim. And just by the amount of spots on the, on the car that I touched

to show it where we had damaged. It's like, oh, yeah, it's totaled. You know, we don't even need the

estimator to come look at it. But we will anyway. It was also, it was a 2004 Mitsubishi Mirage.

So it's like a super cheap car and pretty old. And it didn't have a ton of miles on it. It was

only like 150,000 or something like that. But it, um, there's not a lot of market value in the car. There's

a lot of value to us, which is like, which is something. But now now, you know, we had been talking about

getting a family car, getting an electric or a hybrid, you know, and so now it's like, well,

universe, this is a hard lesson. But cool, we'll take this bridge to get to the next car.

Didn't have to deliver that quite suspiciously. Yeah. But it gets us going. It gets us out of a rut.

We're definitely, um, I'm going to have to take some action. But so I've been looking into the

Chevy Volt, which is man, it's a nice looking car. A hybrid electric plug-in electric in it.

So they can get 50 miles on electric alone. So most of our commuting would just be on electric,

which would be really great. And then it can go up to 420 with the gas engine on just on one tank.

Let's go for the rain, Jungs, I'll let you know. Oh, yeah. But we like to take road trips. We go to

Montana. We go to Washington and some other places and just, you know, unless your car,

I, you know, I want that so bad. But the infrastructure to fast charge them is not super great.

And, um, yeah, just the flexibility of an angle to still cause a bunch of pollution out of the back of

our cars. Really wonderful. I'm just full. My head is always full of the pros and cons of everything.

And I'm just like, yes, I'm thankful that we get to burn this resource that we get, we pull from

out of the ground and it causes more CO2. And yes, thank you for the pollution we're able to

has. That's a reframing. Well, um, further to our discussion last week. I, um, quit Brumble. Wow,

it's end of an era already. Yes, yes, less of an era more an era. Um, yeah, no, it wasn't, it wasn't an

era. It wasn't a mistake. I have no regrets. But I would much rather end it too quickly than too late.

And so yeah, Saturday, Cameron, I was, as, you know, we were talking last Friday. I was so

exhausted and really tired. Um, spent too much time dancing with the universe. And so over the weekend,

I did nothing. I made a delicious chili, con carne macaroni cheese. Oh, yeah, oh my god,

it was, I described it on Instagram as so as food so comforting, it stroked my hair and told me,

I got this kind of level of comfort. Um, like I got the real sense that it just wanted to wrap

me up and tell me how wonderful I am. And so I, you know, what should be a TV and send a difficult

email to essentially the one other person who was using Brumble sort of out in the world and said, hey,

uh, let's, you know, um, let's, let's, let's, yeah, let's not be on your new home. Yeah. And,

uh, it's not you to me. It's exactly, it's very much that. Um, it's just that,

really what I said last week of kind of realising that there are things that need to be done and I have

no inclination to do them, um, not no inclination. That's not true. Um, there are other things I would

rather be doing. And if I'm feeling that right now, um, uh, you know, and and, you know, other things

that I talked about like the fact that very few people industry-wide or or outside of the industry,

were like, yeah, this is a good idea. Um, and then it was just lovely to reflect on the things

that I know long enough need to care about again. Like, I don't need to- I don't have to have a professional

interest in what YouTube decides is a podcast or not. I don't need to care anymore. Um, I don't

need to care too much about the blockchain or whether I want to do something with the blockchain, which I don't

or, you know, various other things. I just, it's, it's nice not to have to care about those things

again. Um, and to put my stuff back to, back somewhere where I know it will be safe and I know

it's in really good hands. Like, I spoke to the guys at transistor who, uh, well, he's doing all

of my stuff before. And I hadn't realized this, but I should have just asked them in the first place.

Like, can you just restore all my podcasts? I mean, like, yeah, they're all there. Like,

we deleted, we didn't really delete, they didn't go away. You know what I mean? We just removed them from

your dashboard effectively. Like, nope, there it is. It's all still there. Um, and, and so it was sort of

relatively easy to to move back. And so hopefully, uh, there's, there's no disruption, but, um,

yes, I sort of did that over the weekend and Monday got everything, you know, back to where it should be.

And it now means that I can spend more time doing the things that really feel like

they are guided by what I want to do, guided by a bit of joy. Um, I've got a video planned,

very small one of recorded most of it because I, so, uh, brief, brief, uh, sojourn over to

manifestation corner as a kind of a test or whatever. Um, I, and there's slightly knowing, like,

yeah, I can see where the mechanics of this will work out, kind of thing, very early on. I put on my

list of things to call in a, um, a Bluetooth, self-heating mug called an ember mug. I've heard

great things about the ember. Yes. Um, so it should any of my family or loved ones listen,

this is not a slant on you, but I was hoping someone would get it for me for my 40th birthday.

And, uh, no one did. And so that's fine. And so, I, for whatever reason, it's, there's just something

about it that's really captured my interest. Um, about just so, so the idea is, uh, you have,

you have this cup and, um, you can set an optimal temperature and it will keep your liquid at that

temperature always. And that's quite a thing. It turns out, uh, for one thing, it means you

drink this. Um, we don't try to go up it down when it's just at the right sweet spot. Yeah, or, or,

you don't leave it for too long and then just go, oh, okay, well, there's, there's, you know,

two thirds of a cup or a quarter of a cup, I'll just slurp it down while it's cold.

It's always at the right temperature. Um, and, so, yeah, there was just, there's something so,

I don't know, I couldn't, couldn't quite explain why it just felt so lovely. Um, and, uh, so I'd kind of put

on my list. I was like, I'm going to call in that this mug is half priced in a half price sale,

something. And I think I knew, because of the only a couple of weeks ago, I think I knew that black

Friday was was coming up and I was like, this is not without the realms of possibility.

Um, it didn't come in at half price, but it did come in at nearly two thirds off, um, which was enough to

put it under my bracket of like, because it's an expensive mug. Um, you know, it, it, it, it, it,

that's why, for myself, because it's an extravagance. It's a real extravagance. It's a real luxury.

And so I, yeah, I, I, I didn't allow it for myself. But I, I, I, I searched, I saw it, and it was like,

yeah, okay, that's like, just under 30% off. I'm going to take that as enough of a sign and I'm going to treat

myself. And, uh, it arrived yesterday. And so I recorded a little, uh, of some segments of a little

YouTube video that I'm going to put together because I think it would be quite fun. Um, and I might see

whatever little creative things I can do. Um, but, uh, yes. So, uh, it's those kinds of things that I want

to spend more time doing, you know, I want to spend more time making fun stuff and showing,

as a creative person showing what that life looks like. Um, and so that's kind of where I, that's

kind of where I want to go. Um, and, uh, it, it, it would so, so yesterday, I was having a conversation

with a friend who is, um, an, any a gram. I mean, as close to an expert as, as I can imagine being

that he's been studying it for 20 years. Oh, wow. Or, you know, it's been in his very much his orbit

and he's been, you know, coaching around it and all that kind of stuff. And we had a preliminary

conversation yesterday, he's got a hunch and he has this a lot that when it comes to automated tests,

he thinks I've been mis typed. Okay. Okay. So he thinks I might be a three rather than a nine.

That could be. Yeah. And that because the three six nine triathletes, nine exactly, I am, um, six when I'm

sort of strongest and that's a bit more analytical. It's the fire, remember, right, it's the loyal

skeptic. So that's, you know, getting, getting things done and being as they quite analytical. And then

when I'm maybe seeking comfort or under stress, I tend to go towards the more acquiescing,

let's all go along to get along. Let's make peace. I don't want to cause any disturbance.

And it was a, it was really interesting that the timing of it all because we had this conversation. And I

I'd stirred up some stuff in my WhatsApp group in my family, WhatsApp group that morning about this

disability stuff that I was talking about earlier from from our chancellor and I wasn't prepared to

acquiet or I wasn't prepared to sort of just make peace and be conciliatory. And so it's just me going

off on one like I was standing my ground and I was kind of demanding that people engage rather than

humanly. And I think that's related to the fact that this week I've been, I felt really good. I felt really

positive. I've been just, I like, I've been getting up on the right side of the bed every kind of every

day and there's, you know, a really good outlook at the moment and there's, I think, something in that

security is pulling me back from that nineness. And so it's interesting, you know, not that I want

to cause conflict everywhere, but that I may be a little bit more comfortable in sitting with that and

be guilty or sitting in that like, it's just yeah, being, being okay and sitting in that conflict for a

little bit. And so yeah, it was only a preliminary chat, but it's something that we, we may explore

more because he's, he's much more of a typing interview person rather than a typing test person because

yeah, the tests I've heard as well are just, they're so based on your actions and not your intentions

that they can accurately type you. And it's what you think of yourself, which is judged by how

you feel about yourself at that moment. And when I took the, when I did the test originally,

it was 80 months, two years ago, doing a very different space than I am now. And so the answer

is that I give will be very different. And so without, you know, without even knowing it. And so

I'm quite intrigued and something I want to investigate more. So yeah. That's really cool. Yeah,

another thing that I've heard is that you want to think about how you would react when you were 20

because that's after you've kind of, you've, you've you've fully matured as a person, but you haven't

really started doing any like self work or like honing and crafting and getting

better than your default, it's kind of just like that's where you're, that's where your default lies is the,

is the idea. Yeah, I don't like, I've got my writings from when I was much younger. I haven't got

them to hand, but I looked them up on the way back machine, very privileged in a sense to have

because of shat so much stuff at the internet for so long. I can go and find it, you know, even

from not going to preserve it, it is still preserved in aspect by the people at archive.org and I thank them

for it. I wish some of the MP3s and stuff that I'm shat out into the internet still existed, but they don't

have to be. But I like myself far more now than the version. I think I liked myself when I was 20,

but I don't like as as a man in his 40s, I don't like that 20 year old person. I find, you know,

up until sort of 36, 37, I found into B, I mean, you know, like something I haven't really said much,

but I, there was a moment where I was a bat, like I was a bully on the internet. Like I remember

bullying it, like a young guy and it was all down to getting a job feeling like I was secure and

it was basically tribalism and it was, you know, it was all over. Someone had built a crappy website

and I just, I was awful. I was horrible. I can't remember why, maybe he was on a forum

and we're both on a forum and maybe he offered his website up for people to criticize or something.

I feel like I wouldn't have been that awful if he was just asking for feedback. It might have

been that he, what it probably was, I bet you, was that he disagreed with something I'd written

and then I saw his website and then I went to town and I was, it wasn't just me, I was

bullied up by my friends and colleagues in the office, but I was awful and unapologetic and I was a

bully. Like that version of me is not a good guy and I can talk about where that came from. Like

I don't hate myself from that because I can talk about where that comes from and this,

any of you learn from it and ground. Yeah, absolutely and the thing to learn and to grow

or the thing that I needed to learn was that I was always safe and that's where all of that

lashing out comes from is the, for me at least is the sense that I wasn't safe, that I wasn't

secure, that I wasn't in a play, you know, that I spent a long time being bullied or felt like an

out or feeling like an outcast and I wasn't where I was. I was safe and I, you know, it's like the

kitten that doesn't realize it's in the warm and it's dry and it's safe. It keeps hissing and

spitting and throwing out claws because it doesn't realize actually, you know, what everything's okay,

you don't need to be, you know, spitting. And so I can look at that person with love and

and you know, and all that kind of stuff, but at the same time it's like I don't want to be that person again.

And so yeah, I don't know if I identified with me as at 20, but I'm sure there's a time where I was

yet more of my authentic self. And for me, I think that is, we'll see that again. That's early child.

You know, the interaction on the forum, that was your action and it's the underlying

cause underneath the reason why you would last shout that you were talking about. That's the part

that you want to analyze to determine your number and think about that kind of stuff. So,

sounds like you're on the right track. I'm excited to hear what you guys talk about further.

Yeah, and there's an interesting mirroring, I think, in the, a lot of the work that I do now

is to try and help people feel safe. And I think there's an interesting kind of interplay there

in that I know what it's like to be that, you know, that guy who makes people not feel safe.

Not necessarily in the physical sense. I would hope never in a physical sense, but in that kind of

intellectual space, you know, huge degrees of snobbery and elitism and all that kind of stuff.

That, you know, the flip side of that is the work that I do now is, I don't think I'm deliberately

paying penance for it. But you know, maybe there's a little bit of me that that is, that helps people

go out into the world and actually make the stuff that they want to make. And I, I hope that,

I hope that guy, I hope that kid, because you know, I think he was a kid. I hope he's, I'm sure he's fine.

I'm sure he shook it off. It was only a few days, but, you know, nerds are going to nerd.

And I was that hard corner for a bit. That reminds me, I, I've only had one time where I've

really been bullied on the internet and it was a, a mob. What do you call it when a whole bunch of

people are, are getting it against you? I felt like I was being canceled. I had, I was in this group,

exo, exo. And it was, it was this ultra liberal conference in Portland, Oregon. And it was,

in one realm, really great. It just like so wanted to be inclusive and like aware and,

they were trying to hit all the right buttons, but they were, but they were trying so hard

that they had blinders on. And they couldn't see where they were then leaving people out or,

or being super blind about things because they were so focused. And I, I had this, I was working

with with two other guys and we were going to make a podcast where where three people were talking

across the aisle. It was going to be me as a, as a leftist. My friend who is super like kind of,

very knowledgeable, but apolitical is kind of a centrist. And a conservative friend who's going to be on

the right side, who's going to offer a view into that. He was more libertarian than Republican,

but he was, he was very like, he's front, he's from the south east. And he was just in, in

viewed in that culture and could offer that perspective. And we were going to have to try to have

this common ground conversation. And you know, now the political culture, I think that would fly a lot

better. But at the time in that group, it was in Africa to allow anybody who was remotely read,

remotely Republican, remotely right wing, to have any voice at all. Like, they have already spoken,

they don't get a speaking anymore. They can't stop. And in addition to that, when I was, I was asking

for feedback about this idea and how I could do it right, I wanted to do it. I wanted to ask the questions,

like, hey, before I do this, help me do it the right way. Like, how would any, how are you going to

do this in the most respectful way? Which I think is like, how are you going to, how are you going to

hammer down on a, how are you going to mob a guy for asking the questions on how he wants to do it right?

But anyways, that's the side of the point. Oh, no, I think I think I was very much as the point,

but yes, I mean, it very much is the point for sure, but I used the term POC from my friend,

because he, I mean, that's how he's referred to himself, but he's, he's not white. And it didn't really

matter to him in this context to share his full ethnicity with everybody. But then I got told that

it was super disrespectful of me to use that term to describe my friend, because that's too generic of

a term. It's disrespectful because it's generic and it's not, it's like, oh, you're just saying

not white, like, oh, great, you're, wow, be so proud of you. Have a non-white friend. You know,

that kind of thing, like, and I've got torn to shreds and they moved it over onto Twitter and like,

I had a couple of people, a couple of the white guys that have also been gangmoms to buy this group

that were like, yeah, dude, we feel yeah, you know, you did nothing wrong. But so I had a couple

people that were kind of showing me that I wasn't insane, but like, all these people that I had just

spent a few months admiring and looking up to and trying to mold myself after, because I wanted to be

this good liberal, this good leftist, you know, and this open-minded person and all of a sudden I'm being

torn to shreds because I wanted to ask some questions and also like, I was getting in trouble,

because I was asking questions and not just looking it up myself. And I'm like, this, this is what

this Slack group is for. Like, why are we in the Slack group before not going to ask each other

questions? I don't understand at all and they were just like, yeah, exactly, you don't understand.

Get the F out. What in the world? And so like, so it came to the point where they're going to

they're going to ban, they tell me, okay, yeah, we need to ban you from this group and I'm like,

all right, just wait a sec. I want to take, can you, at least let me take screenshots of all this

conversation before I go? And he's like, yeah, you should because you should learn from it. And I'm like,

I certainly will. I certainly will learn from this. And so I did and I look back on those now and

man they look insane. Those people are insane. And I've shown it to some other people. I'm like, yeah,

you did nothing wrong. This is gross. And you know, I definitely, I did my best when they were

saying their comments. Like, another layer, another aspect of it was that I was being too defensive

with my replies. And I was trying to like, I feel like I was pretty mild, like in my

defensiveness. I'm like, oh, okay, thank you for that feedback. That's really interesting. I'll take

that into account. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. And this is kind of my message.

You know, time to be incredibly gracious and effasive even. And yeah, it was, it was a very, it was a

devastating time. I abandoned the project. I really disappointed my friends. And no, you didn't.

I don't know them, but no, you didn't. No, I did. We kind of, we kind of, we kind of, we can't, we, we,

I discussed it with both of them at Nazim. And like they, they understand and they felt bad for me

and and stuff. But I also like, the three of us have a gross, super far apart. Like, we didn't

really stay in touch where we would have. And it was a pretty big bummer and it was, you know,

definitely instigated because of that attack. But I get what you're saying as well. Like,

yeah, they weren't upset with me. But because of my trauma from that event, I had to pull out.

And, and that was hard. And you know, it also going into it in general. Like, I was in this,

I was in a pretty unhealthy place. I was in a very unhealthy relationship. My, I was in very unhealthy

place with my body. I was not nearly as liquidious and talkative as I am now. Like, now I'd be

more, much more able to have those conversations and be with it in the conversation to be able to counter people

and bring up facts. Although now I'm completely out of politics and not, not able to have that

conversation for different reasons. But I, I was already struggling with the idea of even being capable

of doing that podcast and and representing my side of the argument well enough. And then getting

torn to shreds just made me realize, oh, definitely I do not have what it takes to have this conversation.

And so it was destroyed. And also, I was so excited for it too because I had, I had three things

that made me outside of the fact that I was excited to have a conversation with my buddies.

I had an excellent name for the podcast in Pod, we trust. I had an excellent icon, like,

a podcast artwork for it was this, it was a quarter that on the, on the, on the US quarter it says

in God we trust. And I photoshopped the G to a P and it said in Pod we trust. And it looked so good.

I am not a photoshop guy and it looked so good. I was so proud of it. And then I started a Twitter account.

And I got like a thousand people following before we even had a podcast episode out.

And it was like, oh man, there's, before it, this is going to be exciting. We can actually do something

cool. This could take off. And then I just, I just abandoned shit because I got y'all that.

So there's two things I want to, I want to, I'd like us to go to two places that are like

to do the first place. I think we have to sit with the emotion of that. We have to sit with the feeling

of that of how, truly that played out and how, truly we're treated. And that feeling. Because

listen, if you perhaps don't know Brendan, the things that he was, I mean, no, you know,

that look, look into this man's heart and you don't see someone who wants to do anything other than

try and understand and bring people together and share love that was true. You know, that's always

been true from when I've known Brendan and the Brendan I know now is very different from the Brendan

I knew then, but that was still the Brendan. That was still Brendan. And so, you know, I really want

to sit with that for a moment or not sit with it, but acknowledge it and acknowledge the her and how

roughly you were treated. I appreciate that. And in lieu of any kind of real lesson, I think what this

shows us is part of the issue is trying to have and what can often be a non-linear discussion

in a kind of linear format. The problem with something like Slack is that so many people can pile on

a wall, you're still talking about, you know, people can ask question two, three, four, five, six, seven,

eight, nine, and ten while you're still trying to deal with question one. And as you were doing that,

they are piling on more and more and more and more and it's all to do with I think and I kind of think

it brings us back to the point right at the beginning is it has almost nothing to do with the issue,

it has everything to do with this tribal need or this ideological need to decide what people are to decide

they're valid to make a judgment about a person before actually properly engaging. And I think I wonder

whether, and these things, the tools weren't as ubiquitous when this happened as they are now,

but I wonder whether now and approach would be to say, okay, we've got a choice here. I think you can

continue piling on me and I'm going to leave and that's me done, but you can continue having to

go at me if you like or tomorrow at noon, I'm going to open a Zoom room and we can actually have a conversation

or we'll do it over discord or we'll do it over Slack chat and we can do this one at a time where you can

come to me with what you believe I said that was wrong and I can talk to you about the thing and

it doesn't have to be defensive but one at a time and if you don't want to engage with that then

you actually don't want to know more because like you said you don't understand there for you should leave.

This to me and this is sort of the point that actually I was interested in getting into but it was

important that we addressed the emotional point first. There is a really I think a really

pernicious and corrosive and really damaging and ugly part of what has now in conservative circles

been called woke culture. I think it's a bad name anyway but when we talk about people who are

nominally defenders of the downtrodden and defenders of people who are getting a raw deal that's a

noble cause and that's one I think we all spoused the world path but there is something really toxic

in the we can't even use the phrase I'm just asking the question even using that phrase has now become

a dog whistle because it's become a meme it's become a cliche because what people think that usually

proceeds is someone who's going to say something awful that I believe there are still questions

and our society that don't have answers yet and people are acting as if they do. I'm not going to

list them or the ones I think because those that doesn't matter because whether I've got questions

about them doesn't matter but the fact that there are spaces where that dialogue is unwelcome and people

are unwilling to engage in that discussion and just to go is that actually the case did that actually

happen is this what we think is that sensible is this safe is that we those conversations are shut

down in a such a toxic way that I think that is really damaging and that's something that I've come

to realise over the last year or two years because it has nothing to do with the intent of the person.

Family member recently said there was a contestant on to Viver who goes by they them and they

they were like yeah you know and it is what it is but I'm a human and this person I was speaking to

was like well they can't be then because a human can only be you know and this is someone I know is not

transphobic and is you know is like me is is trying to understand the gender spectrum and that

kind of stuff but I knew that the intention of that person was not to actually claim that this was

not a human being but was a question of semantics and so two years ago I would have launched into a

whole how dare you this is outrageous you are that wasn't the point the point was it was a semantic issue

and there was a misunderstanding in the semantics but there is there is such a glee in those kinds of

trans stuff aside like any of these communities like you were talking about there is such a

glee sometimes in trying to find that one thing that proves you are not a part of this tribe and therefore

we must defend our tribe yeah I can write you off because you mean a mistake yeah or you just came

in you went it's that okay that's you know that's interesting well how do I do this and because you

didn't already have the answer that was somehow a crime and I just I the more and more and it's

so it's so tricky to want this line because it then makes people think that you don't care about those

issues you absolutely do but it's then not to a degree that it becomes so toxic you just don't have

the exposure yet to the different perspective oh it it it it's we are in a really tricky time and

I think we've I've got a friend who's a I wouldn't say an anti-vaxxer but is is vax skeptical

and because there are things there are questions that doesn't mean those questions are will prove

that they have right answers but it means there are questions and it's that simple by saying

by simply saying how have we done the question are we asking the questions does not mean anything other

than have we asked the questions but we were so okay anyway you get the point I'm repeating

myself but it really I find it impressive and dark I find it really dark I find it really toxic and

I find it it's not fascist but it is as restrictive and it is because it's about control and

dog whistle again freedom of speech you and I have had so many conversations about a freedom of

speech back in my old job and how that to us then was a dog whistle and it's still kind of is because most

of the time the people who talk about freedom of speech are in no danger of having their freedom of

speech challenged because they have all the power already yeah and they just went the excuse to be

able to say shitty things yeah without consequence absolutely without consequence exactly this is

absolutely a freedom of speech issue and you can't even it's it's so naughty and eating on itself and I just

I find it fascinating but also just so dark that there are now things what I just say I don't

have an opinion on that because it's so much easier rather than I have questions rather than I agree

I just make it's far safer to not have a public opinion on this because otherwise

I would much sorry at last point I think I would much rather engage with someone who

disagreed with where I was politically than someone who I was politically aligned with but had this

misinterpretation or this idea of always in that it was so tribal that you know I would rather

actually I think that's it like I would rather disagree and have a conversation with someone from a

different tribe than someone I thought was in the same tribe because that is so much more toxic okay

I'm gonna drink my very warm coffee now and that's exactly what that's exactly what happened to me one thing

I find

relieving about our post-woke culture era which actually I don't even this this might be outdated but this is

where I left the internet we started we finally started to realize that when a person is triggered

that is on the person that's triggered not the person that triggers unless there's somebody is actually

trying to be a bully unless somebody is picking a fight that's different but when a person is just talking

and they trigger somebody that is non-them that's on the person who is triggered because they have

whatever issues that they haven't worked on yet and we all have issues that we haven't worked on yet

that's you know that's what we're trying to do here in TBM is what we're trying to do in our daily

lives as as as conscientious people, conscious and conscientious and work on our own traumas and not let

them affect other people in our daily lives but what happened in that slack group was a few people got triggered

and in that at that time back in 2007 or '89 or whatever it was 2009 I think oh it's 2019 I think 2019

yeah I don't know time time is the flat circle to me I don't I have no idea I do the same thing

I've lost from 2002 2010 like I forget that whole decade exists the reason I think it was around

that is because we did a series on burnout and so it might have been late 2018 because this topic came

up in the burnout series that we were recording and I think you would just in the process of wanting

it down at that point that sounds right yeah yeah but yeah so at that time that the

trigger is being on the person who was triggered was not really a part of the culture yet

I think there was a couple books and a couple Twitter people and a couple Instagram people that kind of

came out and made a good movement on that afterwards but I'm really thankful that we're there now

like because like I had I kind of triggered this is a whole big discussion we won't get into but

I triggered my sister kind of recently and it's caused a bit disruption in our relationship and we

had a conversation about it and even though she was still upset with me and she's still kind of taking

it out of me she could still also understand that this was on her and she was like yeah I know I

have issues I don't have time to deal with them so I'm shutting you out it's more or less how

how it came out came to because she couldn't just couldn't handle me she was protecting herself in

that sense that was a question mark no it's not a statement but no it's and it's true it's

absolutely yes she has to protect us she just she doesn't have the resources and the capacity to handle

both everything that she's piled on into her life and trying to understand and empathize with her

brother and what he's what he's about and what he's trying to do so you know everybody's everyone's

that they're staging life for the list and again like when and maybe I'm being overly defensive

but when Brendan says it's on you like not that it's your fault but it is your responsibility you know

because it's yourself and not out of some sense of duty to anyone else but it's a sense of duty to

yourself that you've got to put your own oxygen mask and you've got to get out of that dangerous

environment you know I'm going to put a trigger warning on this episode probably for probably two

one because of the stuff we're talking about now and also because of you describing what happened to

this week and I want to make sure and it's only a courtesy you were talking I know someone who was

and we talked about them the last week they're not a listener but you know affected by

a car collision and it is you know I think if someone gets triggered and has a pop at us

if we didn't warn them that's one that you know that's on us if we warn them then yeah it's not like

that's on you and point in the finger but it's just that's it's simply the statements of that's why we

put the warning in place yeah yeah when it's when it's noble when it's inskecible that's that's a

wonderful thing to do I don't personally subscribe to the fact that that's required and if there's no

trigger warning then that's on us for having a conversation and not warning people what's in the

conversation personally but I also I think that's mighty respectful to have a trigger warning and yeah I

don't mean like like you said about about being triggered like it's it's not your fault for being

triggered but it is your responsibility to deal with not the person who is just saying something

without any intention of harming that's not on them it's again it's gone back to intent wow we've we've

we've done it nothing we solved it we should have proud of us another week accomplished

I love our time together Brendan thank you likewise thank you so much

back in the next week

I saw a TikTok today of a woman who'd painted her husband's like like a dinner whatever and he was building

a bar and he's a big Simpsons fan and she painted this really well put together sort of mural

of most haven and she's got mo and all the or the people and it looked really good and

I was kind of I was a bit I felt for her because the boyfriend came down and I don't know maybe he'd already

seen it but it was just like oh babe that's great and I'm like I think it deserved more

it's so easy to get those characters like a little bit wrong oh yeah do you know what I mean like

it's so easy to get them just a little bit off and then it's ruined but they're with their looks perfect

yeah I don't know maybe he just knows his wife's skill so much that he's not surprised but like he just

felt a bit like oh come on give it a bit more a little bit more yeah